Glass classes in your businesses

[shellyathand]

I am just about ready to begin opening a weekend ceramics shop but want to add glass jewelry to my class list. It appears a lot of PYOP shops are starting to offer glass jewelry to their menu. Does anyone know what the profit margin is on offering this so I would know how to price it? I am seeing $35 per person to make a pendant but do not know what all I will need to invest in to offer it. I have 2 kilns so thats not a problem.
Thanks for any info.
Shelly

[NancyGoodenough]

Please, please, and I say this as gently as possible, take some time and learn to make decent glass jewelry before you teach it to others. There is a lot of (gently, Nancy) crap out there. Please do not add to the mix.

You can take some classes from a variety of places and read here about what nice work can be done.

I thank you.

[Valerie Adams]

Please, please, and I say this as gently as possible, go back and read Nancy's post above.

The market is already saturated with blobs-glued-on-a-finding.

[Kevin Midgley]

I agree with the last two comments. Please don't do it. It will hurt your reputation.

[judith]

I wholeheartedly agree with what Nancy and Valerie so gently said, and especially what Kevin added in his last sentence.

[pinkcb]

First let me say, I am NOT disputing any of the advice given. It obviously comes from far more experience than I have. So please please PLEASE don't misconstrue this. But... let's assume she's going to do it anyway. Despite all the previous posts. What should she do to grow her business in a responsible fashion? What type and how many courses should she take before she embarks on teaching others? Who are the experts in this field? What books should she be learning from? Besides the 'how to melt glass so it doesn't look like a crappy blob" where could she find out about how to present the jewlery (ie wire wrapping etc). I'll echo the sentiment that there is an abundance of butt ugly melted glass out there (jewlery and otherwise). But if some people think they can make a buck out of it they are going to do it anyway. How to do they get educated to do something better?

[Linda Steider]

Shelly, perhaps there's a local glass instructor you can hire to offer classes for your opening schedule. They will already have a fee schedule & your prices will simply be based on their cost. It doesn't necessarily have to be pendants; maybe your customers will want to make tiles or coasters or ice cream bowls.

Linda

[Barry Kaiser]

This is going to end up a rant, so bear with me.
6 years ago when she started fusing, my niece took a 4 hour fusing course for jewelry. It was taught by 2 ladies who had a combined 2 years experience with glass. I stopped by while the course was going on.
It ended up being "cut some pieces of glass (here's how). Assemble. Add one small piece of dichro (it's expensive you know). Stick in kiln (don't worry about the temps). Pull it out 1 hour later and.. voila... you have ART. Ain't it beautiful (just ignore those bubbles)"
This is what is taught as basic jewelry in many venues.
These are the people who end up at local crafts fairs with $14.99 dichroic glass pendant ART.
One thing that creates this problem is that the artists who really are good at glass tend to migrate to larger work and treat the smaller stuff with disdain.
About 7 years ago, I decided to stick with the smaller (pendant sized) work and try to see how much you could do with that size. it is amazing what can be done. It is easy to make a 12 inch plate with 5 or 6 different techniques. Try to cram that many techniques into a 1.5x1.25 pendant.
In the classes that I teach (I only teach "small" oriented classes), I would say that 3/4 or more of the students ask the same question. "Can I use the techniques I learn in larger pieces?" In fact I now start my classes with the answer to that question....Yes. Everyone seems to think bigger is better.
In the last 5 years I have found 2 other glass artists who focus exclusively on small pieces. I know there are more out there, but we haven't found them.
To sum up, as long as the emphasis is on"bigger is better", we will continue to have the "dichro blob" taught as ARTistic small glass. It will be taught by 6 month wonders who really have no idea how to fuse.
One last thought. i have painted "jewelry courses" with a broad brush. There are many fine courses taught about glass jewelry. These are however in the small minority compared to the myriad of crap being taught out there.

rant rant rant.


Barry

[Barbara Muth]

I assume that the clientele of a "paint your own pottery" shop is very different from someone who wants to learn how to do it themsleves. They may reach that point, but at least the first time they come, it's just because they want to relax and maybe have fun.

Given that assumption, the persons running the business need to have a thorough understanding of how different layups and schedules work in their kiln. If they don't have that, they may end up reimbursing clients for pieces that failed in the firing. They need sample tiles to show what different fuse temps will render in the glass so that customers can pick what they want. And they need a good understanding of volume control, bubble control, etc. There is nothing like pulling a piece from the kiln with a big hole in it because the shop manager didn't know enough about volume control to correct a layup that is risky before it goes in the kiln. They can hire someone else who knows all of that to run the glass part of their business, but that person will still need to get to know their kilns and that takes time.

What prices are profitable depend on the resources and training needed to get this part of the shopp's business running. My guess is that by the time you factor in all of the costs associated with learning, it may be difficult to make a profit on the glass part of the business.

I agree with Nancy, Valerie, Judith and whoever else has put up a caution sign. Glass isn't quite as straightforward to manage as the pottery side of the business would be.

p.s. while you have kilns already, firing glass in a pottery kiln requires a greater learning curve than firing it in a glass kiln. It is done, but the design isn't ideal. The best kilns for the kind of work you are considering (pendants) are shallow with top elements (and maybe side too).

[Bert Weiss]

In the classes that I teach (I only teach "small" oriented classes), I would say that 3/4 or more of the students ask the same question. "Can I use the techniques I learn in larger pieces?" In fact I now start my classes with the answer to that question....Yes.
Barry

Barry

It was you who taught me that smaller is different. I was always of the impression that firing schedules and annealing were totally dependent on thickness not area. You showed me that when you get down to 1" x 1" or maybe even 2" x 2" there are changes in how you can fire. I still think that by the time you are at 4" x 4" there is no difference between that and 4' x 4' in the same thickness.

I totally agree that teachers should have a solid foundation in all aspects of the process.

I have seen what can happen when a person with a good eye and just fundamental understanding of the technical end can do making jewelry. I liked it. This person stumbled on to a simple technique that worked. He didn't totally understand why, but it still worked. The key to his success was his good eye for composition. These were better than blobs.

In the end, it takes both artistic and technical expertise to make good work.

[NancyGoodenough]

It did occur to me that we are being baited into ranting (good one, Barry) and someone thinks this is April 1st.

Is this real?

It did bring us all together, which is a good thing.

If real, i hope we are listened to. There is no location in the profile to lead the person to a good local instructor.

[Carol Silrum]

Shelly,
Since you are already have a ceramics shop, and are teaching that, why not offer a ceramics jewelry class. Ceramic pendants and beads can be very, very interesting and your students can experiment with different types of carving, texturing and glazes etc. Better to kill two birds with one stone rather than throwing a handful of pebbles and not hitting anything!

~Carol

[pinkcb]

I'll keep my pollyanna glasses on and chose to believe that it wasn't a bait (not everyone is comfortable with posting that much personal info ie location). And the ensuing discussions are wonderful. IMO they are chock full of information (not just the "don't do it" but the "why"). A great number of people on this board are fantastically glass-gifted. It's the ones that are willing to share their knowledge and experience that I value so much. I too took my first course fusing and found it wholly unsatisfying... we cut some glass, talked a bit about a few basic technicalities then left for the night...no kiln exposure at all. No talk of schedules, programming. 90% of my classmates were happy they made a pretty plate.And that's all they will ever make. I went back the next day and sweet talked my way into the kiln area to see stuff in action. I asked more questions and it got me excited about the prospects. Was I expecting too much from a beginner class? Most definitely. I didn't lean anything I hadn't already learned from reading some great books. What it did give me was a desire to learn more.

[NancyGoodenough]

Pink, seeing the kiln in action was not too much to expect from a beginner class. I learned at Sharon Art Studio in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco. We were required to fire the kiln ourselves, and we rotated who was responsible. When I first got there, we mostly used a big side-fired pottery kiln, no controller, with multiple shelves packed with our work. If your shelf was on the top, it fired differently from if it was in the middle, and we jockeyed for the right spot for our work. It was a fabulous learning experience with a great experienced teacher. Thanks, Connie Flannery, for getting me started with this fusing thing.

[shellyathand]

Thank you all sooooo very much. I myself am just beginning in a glass class and was interested in having it in the shop to add variety for the clients sake. Having read all the posts, I am convinced that hiring a glass artist to teach the class will be the way I would prefer to continue to have good business ethics since it is not my intent just to make a buck. I am more about quality not quantity. I think ceramic and clay jewelry will also be on my list. Thanks for the ideas. I look forward to learning about glass but will leave the techniques to the experienced.

Thanks so much,
Shelly

[Morganica]

Thank you all sooooo very much. I myself am just beginning in a glass class and was interested in having it in the shop to add variety for the clients sake. Having read all the posts, I am convinced that hiring a glass artist to teach the class will be the way I would prefer to continue to have good business ethics since it is not my intent just to make a buck. I am more about quality not quantity. I think ceramic and clay jewelry will also be on my list. Thanks for the ideas. I look forward to learning about glass but will leave the techniques to the experienced.

Thanks so much,
Shelly

Just from a pure business perspective, be a little careful here. If you're just starting out, you're going to have a fair amount of inventory to purchase and manage. Just as you need a wide palette of glazes, stains and bisque, you'll find you need almost as much, if not more, to maintain a good palette of glass. It's not just a few sheets of glass--it's frit (which comes in hundreds of colors and particle sizes), a rainbow of opaque and transparent sheet glass, different colors of stringer, etc.

Obviously you don't need to carry the entire line, but you'll still need a fair variety, and that gets expensive. Then you'll need glass cutters, grinders (hand or machine), some way to finish the edges of pieces that come out rough. There's glue, safety masks if you're using powdered frit, a line of findings, fibre paper to make holes. You'll have to figure in breakage, waste and spillage (the first time someone dumps cobalt blue powder into the sand opal powder, you'll also discover you need to develop a way of distributing individual portions of frit).

Then there's bandaids (cuts are a lot more common with glass than bisqueware) and you may wind up with higher liability insurance if you've got kids and glass mixing in the same room. You'll tell people until you're blue in the face not to let sharp glass edges hang off the table...and you'll spend time mopping up the blood when they do it anyway and someone walks into it. (And blood, BTW, is a hazardous material, so you'll need to know how to dispose of it properly, especially blood left on the glass for the next person to contact.)

You'll be firing in a separate kiln because the schedules are so different, which probably means a separate (or at least an extra) kiln, and you'll need to put a lot of glasswork in there to make it pay. If you choose to diversify to get more out of your glass firings (or if people start asking for small bowls/dishes instead of jewelry)...then there's molds, kilnwash, etc.

If it were me, I think I'd stick with making one material work really well (and I love the ceramic jewelry idea), and then diversify once things were on the road to profitability.

[dguinn]

You might want to go to SmartFlix.com and rent a few glass making DVDs.
Just a thought.
di

[kdrosnes]

It is interesting to me to read all this advice, but I have to disagree with some of it. My first glass fusing class was taught in a ceramics shop by people who knew very little about glass, and not so much about composition either BUT it got me started. It was fun, I met a lot of great people and now I am totally hooked on glass. I have been fusing for about 5 years and sell enough at our local Winter Craft show to pay for more glass and equipment. I have taken classes at the Corning Glass Studio (the absolute greatest!) and even took a private lampworking class in Murano, Italy. I have found that the very beginning level classes are fun for people who just want to try stuff and serious artists can move up to the next step. As a public school art teacher for over 20 years, I would never discourage anyone from trying a new art or craft. Art making is not just for the elite. Don't take offense, let me rephrase that- ART IS FOR EVERYONE!

[Brock]

It is interesting to me to read all this advice, but I have to disagree with some of it. My first glass fusing class was taught in a ceramics shop by people who knew very little about glass, and not so much about composition either BUT it got me started. It was fun, I met a lot of great people and now I am totally hooked on glass. I have been fusing for about 5 years and sell enough at our local Winter Craft show to pay for more glass and equipment. I have taken classes at the Corning Glass Studio (the absolute greatest!) and even took a private lampworking class in Murano, Italy. I have found that the very beginning level classes are fun for people who just want to try stuff and serious artists can move up to the next step. As a public school art teacher for over 20 years, I would never discourage anyone from trying a new art or craft. Art making is not just for the elite. Don't take offense, let me rephrase that- ART IS FOR EVERYONE!

The majority of the responses were not about discouraging people from trying something new, they were addressing the issue of people with NO experience teaching.

[AndyT]

FWIW...I teach a 2 hour jewelry workshop at my store. It is designed to introduce people to small firings...like jewelry. I have a bunch of precut earring and pendant blanks and a bowl full of dichro and clear caps. The purpose of the class is to try and stimulate the creative process along with basic fusing information. It has really become a social gathering and many of the first students have taken it two and three times with friends. You'd be surprised at how creative some of these people can be especially the ones that say that they can't think out of the box. They all have fun, make 3-4 pendants and a couple or so pairs of earrings. I do the firing the next day. They come back and I show them how to attach the findings and that's pretty much it. Some will buy a small kiln and get into jewelry and some buy a bigger kiln and some, I never see again. I teach this type of workshop more as a relaxtion time and to have fun. I don't overwhelm folks with a lot of technical geekery. I charge around $60 or so and that includes everything....and I think thats a fair price.

Andy