Some time back I posted a question about the green tint in Spectrum's series 96 yellow opaque. Several of you responded and said the same thing, as did my supplier who told me he hadn't noticed it until I called him.
Well I sent Spectrum a "tactful" email asking what had happened and they admitted to changing the color; can you believe it? They went on to say they had gone back to the old formula (didn't say why) and appoligized for any trouble they'd caused.
Why don't they post things like this on their web site? Are they afraid of us? Well, looks like the stock of yellow opaque will be returning to it's "yellow" yellow.
Just thought you'd like to know.
Jerry
Spectrum blues revisited
Moderators: Brad Walker, Tony Smith
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David Williams
Re: Spectrum blues revisited
In Spectrums defense I would hesitate to call this a customer service issue. Spectrum had to stop making the Yellows and orange solid opals because the washington state department of ecology (If I recall) wanted them to stop. These are toxic glasses to melt and although I don't know Spectrums specific formula, involve toxic metals like Cadmium. I know Spectrum had planned to move the production of the colors to Uroboros in Oregon where apparently the department of ecology (they call it something different I forget) was more lax. However Uroboros has a totally different melt process than Spectrum. So its not surprising that the recipe may have changed. Also no one could be faulted for trying to clean up those colors and make them environmentally safer. Also, I think it would be unreasonable for one to expect to be notified every time a glass company changes a formula.
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DonMcClennen
- Posts: 381
- Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 9:09 pm
- Location: Ontario
I don't believe the greenish yellow Spectrum had anything to do with envioronmental issues in Washington State. That was just the Reds, Oranges and Caramel colours. I'm glad to hear they are going to change back to a purer yellow. Thanks foe the heads up. I do think they should have been more forthcoming with colour tampering data.
"The Glassman"
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Cynthia
I know it's tough, particularly if you are doing production work when your materials change.
I don't know why Spectrum changed their formula, perhaps it was a quality control thing and they went back to a tried and true?...speculation on my part, but with each of the glass manufacturers I've used (Uro, BE, Spectrum and Wasser) there have been glasses I adored that were discontinued, or difficult to get, yet still elusively available (just how to get them is the question), new product numbers for a different glass that replaced another glass...yet I wasn't personally notified. My awareness of product availablitliy, discontinued glasses and new colors comes with my new catalogs (which don't come to me as often as the inventories change).
Perhaps we could ask our suppliers or the manufacturers to put us on an emailing list to keep us posted on changes or new products and discontinued's? I sure would have liked to know that Thin fire was new and improved and coming on the market...about a week after I invested in a new roll of the old stuff.
I would have waited to order the new stuff otherwise.
And so it goes.
I don't know why Spectrum changed their formula, perhaps it was a quality control thing and they went back to a tried and true?...speculation on my part, but with each of the glass manufacturers I've used (Uro, BE, Spectrum and Wasser) there have been glasses I adored that were discontinued, or difficult to get, yet still elusively available (just how to get them is the question), new product numbers for a different glass that replaced another glass...yet I wasn't personally notified. My awareness of product availablitliy, discontinued glasses and new colors comes with my new catalogs (which don't come to me as often as the inventories change).
Perhaps we could ask our suppliers or the manufacturers to put us on an emailing list to keep us posted on changes or new products and discontinued's? I sure would have liked to know that Thin fire was new and improved and coming on the market...about a week after I invested in a new roll of the old stuff.
I would have waited to order the new stuff otherwise. And so it goes.
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Jerry
Spectrum blues
I appreciate the position some folks take in defending Spectrum, and don't misunderstand me, I have no intention of leaving their ranks. I've learned to use Series 96, like it and produce stuff with predictable results.
The problem with the Yellow was a Spectrum problem. Red and orange have been shifted to Uroboros but Yellow NEVER was and isn't going to be. The enviornmental issues don't pertain to the yellow process, according to them! So lets get that part of it cleared up.
The last time Spectrum dorked around with their glass, and I caught them, it was series 96 white. Maybe some of you didn't know about this, haven't been at it long enough or didn't realize it, but they changed their formulation for the white and the fusing world started getting bubbles the size of grapefruits between the mold and base sheet; remember?
A chemist at Spectrum admitted to me that he had changed the formulation and that they, Spectrum, had the same bubble problem. They changed to Bullseye kiln wash and their bubbles went away. Why didn't they put that on their web site? It affected a lot of us. I went through about four full sheets doing the typical testing before I threw my hands in the air and called them. They came clean, but why couldn't they have told us that before?
And that's the long and the short of why I'm upset about the yellow. They changed it and didn't warn us. Seems like a small issue but it's not small to people who make their living doing glass. We NEED a dependable, predictable product, and I resent it when those qualities go away without warning.
Flame me if you need to, but this one bothered me and I have the right to say so.
Jerry
The problem with the Yellow was a Spectrum problem. Red and orange have been shifted to Uroboros but Yellow NEVER was and isn't going to be. The enviornmental issues don't pertain to the yellow process, according to them! So lets get that part of it cleared up.
The last time Spectrum dorked around with their glass, and I caught them, it was series 96 white. Maybe some of you didn't know about this, haven't been at it long enough or didn't realize it, but they changed their formulation for the white and the fusing world started getting bubbles the size of grapefruits between the mold and base sheet; remember?
A chemist at Spectrum admitted to me that he had changed the formulation and that they, Spectrum, had the same bubble problem. They changed to Bullseye kiln wash and their bubbles went away. Why didn't they put that on their web site? It affected a lot of us. I went through about four full sheets doing the typical testing before I threw my hands in the air and called them. They came clean, but why couldn't they have told us that before?
And that's the long and the short of why I'm upset about the yellow. They changed it and didn't warn us. Seems like a small issue but it's not small to people who make their living doing glass. We NEED a dependable, predictable product, and I resent it when those qualities go away without warning.
Flame me if you need to, but this one bothered me and I have the right to say so.
Jerry
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Barbara Cashman
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:42 pm
- Location: Greensboro NC
- Contact:
Interesting thread. And I don't intend to flame anyone, Spectrum included. Like Cynthia, I have been caught in the middle of production lines, where the samples boards were spread clear across the country and, ALL OF A SUDDEN, the formula changed and I could no longer produce what I SAID I could. S12009Irid was my main problem at the time. Spectrum runs black irid only every 2 years and 1994 was wonderful Then "the formula" changed, so did the spray technique which (I was told) still fell into acceptable ranges for their glass production. Jim Matthews even came to my shop and we discussed the problem at length. I adapted 1996 to actually produce a new line. Then, guess what?? It changed again. 
However, it wasn't until the 2000 run that I could re-introduce the original product line, and I lost the new one. And, since 2000 is probably ready to run out now, I really don't know what the 2002 run looks like, nor will I find out about 2004 for a while. As to the original post, Spectrum 161 yellow also turned a beautiful pumpkin color at slump temps, and golden milky yellow at full fuse several years ago. I have never been able to attain that look again. Yes, the yellow has run very green, so I am anxiously looking forward to trying a new sample. For golden yellows, I always use BE. Still, I don't think there is an equitable answer for those of us who depend on certain glasses for our livlihood that any manufacturer would be so open to let us know what is happening in their chemistry dept. To inform us also means they inform the "competition". Not good business decisions, overall. So much for my input. Wasn't worth much, was it? 
However, it wasn't until the 2000 run that I could re-introduce the original product line, and I lost the new one. And, since 2000 is probably ready to run out now, I really don't know what the 2002 run looks like, nor will I find out about 2004 for a while. As to the original post, Spectrum 161 yellow also turned a beautiful pumpkin color at slump temps, and golden milky yellow at full fuse several years ago. I have never been able to attain that look again. Yes, the yellow has run very green, so I am anxiously looking forward to trying a new sample. For golden yellows, I always use BE. Still, I don't think there is an equitable answer for those of us who depend on certain glasses for our livlihood that any manufacturer would be so open to let us know what is happening in their chemistry dept. To inform us also means they inform the "competition". Not good business decisions, overall. So much for my input. Wasn't worth much, was it? -
Jerry
Spectrum
Barbara,
As to the value of your post, I think it's always worth listening to what other people have to say. That was the entire prompt for me to put up the question in the first place. If I pay enough attention, I can learn a great deal from what others on this board have to say, and that includes you.
The other side; I've been told I have an abrasive personality. 20 years in the Navy didn't help that much but with me you get it the way I see it. I mean no rancor and will not tear into anyone, although it may sound that way.
So, if you took what I said to be a personal attace, it wasn't and I personally apologize. Now, let's get on with the business of glass.
Thanks to all of you,
Jerry
As to the value of your post, I think it's always worth listening to what other people have to say. That was the entire prompt for me to put up the question in the first place. If I pay enough attention, I can learn a great deal from what others on this board have to say, and that includes you.
The other side; I've been told I have an abrasive personality. 20 years in the Navy didn't help that much but with me you get it the way I see it. I mean no rancor and will not tear into anyone, although it may sound that way.
So, if you took what I said to be a personal attace, it wasn't and I personally apologize. Now, let's get on with the business of glass.
Thanks to all of you,
Jerry
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Barbara Cashman
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:42 pm
- Location: Greensboro NC
- Contact:
Re: Spectrum
Jerry wrote:Barbara,
As to the value of your post, I think it's always worth listening to what other people have to say. That was the entire prompt for me to put up the question in the first place. If I pay enough attention, I can learn a great deal from what others on this board have to say, and that includes you. So, if you took what I said to be a personal attace, it wasn't and I personally apologize. Now, let's get on with the business of glass.
Thanks to all of you,
Jerry
youch! no way, Jerry. I really appreciate that you put that post in. I just didn't think I had that much to add to it. But I sincerely thank you for your input. Even if we could consolidate our wishes as a "lobby', I don't think we would have enough numbers to make much headway. - Barbara
Man, I didn't mean my comments this mornign to take the thread the way it has gone over the day... I wasn't intending to start a discussion on whether Spectrum does/does not have good customer service, but rather a general discussion on customer satisfaction....maybe one that belongs over in business topics.
While I work really hard to make sure my commission clients feel they are getting the best service they could possibly get, I have been observing over the past months that customer service as an art seems to be disappearing in all sectors of the economy...at the hair salon, the grocery store, etc and that disinterest in customer satisfaction seems to be at an all time low. I have noticed this conversation coming up at the gym, amongst friends, lots of places in life as a whole, beyond the studio.
Why did I make the comment? I guess I wanted to take the pulse of the group on how pervasive this is...whether this might be a regional thing...the area I live has had a somewhat depressed economy for the past 5 years, or whether it's a generational thing...that young adults just weren't brought up with manners.
How does this relate to glass? I think it's something that we as artists can strive to do...listen to our customers and create satisfied clients when we create work for them...how important is that to you as an artist and how do you do this?
While I work really hard to make sure my commission clients feel they are getting the best service they could possibly get, I have been observing over the past months that customer service as an art seems to be disappearing in all sectors of the economy...at the hair salon, the grocery store, etc and that disinterest in customer satisfaction seems to be at an all time low. I have noticed this conversation coming up at the gym, amongst friends, lots of places in life as a whole, beyond the studio.
Why did I make the comment? I guess I wanted to take the pulse of the group on how pervasive this is...whether this might be a regional thing...the area I live has had a somewhat depressed economy for the past 5 years, or whether it's a generational thing...that young adults just weren't brought up with manners.
How does this relate to glass? I think it's something that we as artists can strive to do...listen to our customers and create satisfied clients when we create work for them...how important is that to you as an artist and how do you do this?
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David Williams
The fact is the colors that were discontinued were all new. I don't have the codes handy but I believe they were butterscotch, orange and red opal. In fact, Spectrum never made *any* solid color opals until about a year or so ago. Prior to that everything was dense wispy, ie a cathedral color mixed with white. Now, cadmium opal glasses such as opal yellows and orange/reds are notoriously hard to melt, and as I said, toxic. Shortly after their debut, the washington environmental folks put the kibosh on their mass manufacture. Which by the way doesn't really surprise me. So you can see that whatever problem you are having with Spectrum opal yellow it might be reasonable to cut them some slack while they get the thing worked out.Don McClennen wrote:I don't believe the greenish yellow Spectrum had anything to do with envioronmental issues in Washington State. That was just the Reds, Oranges and Caramel colours. I'm glad to hear they are going to change back to a purer yellow. Thanks foe the heads up. I do think they should have been more forthcoming with colour tampering data.
The fact is we are lucky Spectrum has made any kind of commitment to these troublesome colors. imho Spectrum is doing its level best to provide competition in the fusing glass suppliers niche, to provide a quality product at a reasonable price. This helps us all. And I personally have found the customer service to be outstanding, even though strictly speaking they are a manufacuring company and not geared toward holding your hand when you have a fusing problem. They have retail outlets for that.
Ps. In reading the rest of the thread a few more comments: The white was changed from the old 200. That was because the old white never would have worked for sys 96 because it devitrified like a bastard. So the new white was less dense, and softer. A lower viscosity glass will be more prone to bubbling. Its a fact of life. The same was the case with the 100sfs--when it first came out it was very soft and bubbled and they had to tweak it. Your tone is kind of funny. You felt you "caught" them but I know they never made any secret of it. I wished the new white was more dense too. But I understand the dillema. They could put lead in it but then you'd piss and moan about that I imagine. Second, just because the yellow isn't being transfered to uro doesn't mean it wasn't an environmental problem. If I was uro I sure wouldn't want to take it on. I forget who it was that wrote all this, but let me just say Jim Gregory is one of the most decent, human guys I've met. He's trying to make a good glass for you and certainly not trying to pull any fast ones. Might I suggest if you have such an adversarial relationship with Spectrum it might be time to consider switching to BE.
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David Williams
All the solid color opals are new. Relatively anyway. In the last year and a half or so. There's a blue that I use alot, a green, and a yellow, as well as the butterscotch, orange and red solid opals in question that were discontinued. Plus you've got transparents that were created for system 96 like hunter green. Just off the top of my head. There are others. I'll go look at the Spectrum site.Dani wrote:New colors? I haven't noticed a lot of new ones in years. New textures sure. New cominations of existing formulas. But, new colors? Tell me who/where/what they are. I'd love something new and fresh if not thrilling.
Ps sea green Olive green and the pink champagne plus other solid opals I didn't list.
pss those are just the new Spectrum colors. Virtually all the 96 coe Uro colors are new. I mean relatively. You couldn't get em two years ago.
ppss for that matter, there are half a dozen or so new Gaffer frits and powders for use at 96 coe. Check out the Olympic site. There's newness all around!
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Brian and Jenny Blanthorn
- Posts: 353
- Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:25 pm
- Location: UK
- Contact:
One of the main things I have learnt isBarbara Cashman wrote:Interesting thread. And I don't intend to flame anyone, Spectrum included. Like Cynthia, I have been caught in the middle of production lines, where the samples boards were spread clear across the country and, ALL OF A SUDDEN, the formula changed and I could no longer produce what I SAID I could. S12009Irid was my main problem at the time. Spectrum runs black irid only every 2 years and 1994 was wonderful Then "the formula" changed, so did the spray technique which (I was told) still fell into acceptable ranges for their glass production. Jim Matthews even came to my shop and we discussed the problem at length. I adapted 1996 to actually produce a new line. Then, guess what?? It changed again.
Expect change
The only way round this I have is 2 buy in lots of stuff so I can B consistant
Easy 4 me as I realy have only 4 main basic materials
I have something like 5 - 25 years stock of em
n I still have trouble with constansistancy
I do feel 4 those who have 2 buy in lots of different stuff
Glass making is a kinda alchemy a very small % difference can B a big one
Added 2 that most of my materials R not used in the maner they were intended
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David Williams
Here's a new conversation on Craftweb this morning that cracked me up and is appropos to this discusion:
"One of the frits I use is Kuglar 61. Once in a while I will get a bag that has pieces that won't melt at the same rate as the rest of the bag. I use it for surface design only. As the frit is "melting in" in the glory hole just a few of the pieces stay dimensional even after the piece is way to hot. Then, when blown out the finish piece has little, flat, nubs of K-61 on it. (Just a few on each piece.) This happens on very thick pieces and also on ornaments (where it really shows). I wonder if this can create a compatability problem, etc. And why it happens?
Any thoughts??"-- Virgil
And Tom Littleton of Spruce Pine wrote back:
"61
Sounds like the guy you bought from sold you some bad color. Not his fault cuz he can't open every bag and try it out but if your glass duz not have the working characteristics it is sposed to then something may be wrong with the composition and if something is wrong with the composition then the expansion is likely to be off. If the frit pieces are small enough then they may not cause breakage but it is still not a good situation. Frits are sometimes made from the crap that is left in the pot after the bar is made and that stuff just might be kinda weird. So call up the guy who sold you that d--- sh--- and tell him how bad it is and be sure to cus him out real good for causing you all that trouble and ruining all your great works of art. Then take the stuff over to his place or send it back freight collect and demand he replace it and pay for all the work he ruined, your time, your gas bill your electric bill, the cost of your equipment, travel time, your car, the cost of your booth at you next show, your helpers' time..........and he'll tell he just sells the stuff and if you want to complain he can give you the E-maill address of the people who make it. Oh yeah, get his home phone # and call him at 3 in the morning."
--Tom @SPB
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Tom@SPB
"One of the frits I use is Kuglar 61. Once in a while I will get a bag that has pieces that won't melt at the same rate as the rest of the bag. I use it for surface design only. As the frit is "melting in" in the glory hole just a few of the pieces stay dimensional even after the piece is way to hot. Then, when blown out the finish piece has little, flat, nubs of K-61 on it. (Just a few on each piece.) This happens on very thick pieces and also on ornaments (where it really shows). I wonder if this can create a compatability problem, etc. And why it happens?
Any thoughts??"-- Virgil
And Tom Littleton of Spruce Pine wrote back:
"61
Sounds like the guy you bought from sold you some bad color. Not his fault cuz he can't open every bag and try it out but if your glass duz not have the working characteristics it is sposed to then something may be wrong with the composition and if something is wrong with the composition then the expansion is likely to be off. If the frit pieces are small enough then they may not cause breakage but it is still not a good situation. Frits are sometimes made from the crap that is left in the pot after the bar is made and that stuff just might be kinda weird. So call up the guy who sold you that d--- sh--- and tell him how bad it is and be sure to cus him out real good for causing you all that trouble and ruining all your great works of art. Then take the stuff over to his place or send it back freight collect and demand he replace it and pay for all the work he ruined, your time, your gas bill your electric bill, the cost of your equipment, travel time, your car, the cost of your booth at you next show, your helpers' time..........and he'll tell he just sells the stuff and if you want to complain he can give you the E-maill address of the people who make it. Oh yeah, get his home phone # and call him at 3 in the morning."
--Tom @SPB
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Tom@SPB
it depends. i'm not sure this is a universal in all walks of life. i've noticed that a lot of stores are going way out of their way to be extra-nice, to the point that it's really annoying. no, i don't need someone to walk me to the exact place on aisle 14 where the lemon juice is, i just need to know which of the 30 aisles and approximately where on the aisle, thank you very much.Carol wrote:Jerry
I've definitely noticed an overall trend in the past 6 months towards a decline in customer service in all kinds of different fields. Just add Spectrum to the list...
from a post in [url]news:alt.home.repair[/url] which is very ontopic to this thought:
Just a thought for all those contractors who talk about how they won't get
out of bed for less than $50 for a service call....I keep thinking about my
recent experience with a contractor, vs. some of the discussions on this
group.
Last week, we were digging out the dry-rot from in front of our front door.
Got to a point where we weren't sure how much wood we needed to take out,
whether it was still structurally sound, or whether we'd have to support the
house with temporary supports while doing the rest of the repair. Basically
we just didn't know if we were in over our heads or not.
It was a Saturday. I'm thinking--it's going to cost a minimum of $50 and
probably closer to $300 to get someone out on the weekend to fix this, if
I'm lucky and can find someone who will do it.
I picked the contractor in the yellow pages who had a display ad which
mentioned dry rot and termite damage, as I knew there were carpenter ants in
the sill.
Our conversation on the phone went something like this....
"We've been doing some repair work on some dry rot in our new house, and we
need some advice, possibly some help with it. We know there are carpenter
ants. We know how the moisture has gotten in. We've taken out the damaged
chipboard and one piece of 2 x 8 decking and can see all the damage. But
we're not sure if we CAN take out all the damaged wood, and are not sure if
we need to support the house while we're doing it, and as there's currently
a gaping hole and we need to move in soon, we need someone to come look at
it right away. Can you come, how much might you charge?"
He said, "Well, I can schedule you sometime next week, but I can stop in and
take a look at it tomorrow morning (Sunday!) and tell you what I think it
will cost. I charge $200 per day or $25 per hour, plus materials."
His hourly sounded GREAT and I knew exactly what lumber would be needed, so
we went out and bought replacement decking and chipboard after we set up a
time to meet.
He looked at the doorway, evaluated what we'd done, and said, "Here's how
you fix this. If you hire someone to do it, it will be a $200-$500 job and
they'd do X, Y and Z. But you only really need to do A, B and C and you'll
be fine. And you don't need me for it."
I asked him how much I owed him for coming out to give his advice on a
Sunday morning. He said, "I'm not going to charge you. Give me a call if you
really need a contractor some time!"
You can damn well bet I will. Not only that, but I know who I can recommend
the next time someone says, "Do you know a good contractor?"
And his advice worked just fine. The patch looks great, haven't seen an ant
there in days, and the floor feels nice and solid. Yay!
So he got no money for the call that day... but he has a customer for life.
And you can bet that when we get to work that we can't handle (and I'm sure
that there will be work at some point that we can't handle) we'll call him.
My mechanic is the same way--if I can point to him and say, "the problem is
this" they don't charge me for diagnosis when they go to fix it. And if it
doesn't need their help, they'll tell me so. I've sent them probably close
to a dozen customers and they do all the work that falls in their
jurisdiction on all of our family's cars. Because they're honest, they do
good work and they don't overcharge, ever. We've used them for ten years, on
all three cars I've owned and four cars my parents have owned in that time.
Jenrose