Hoist with track needed

Brad Walker · Post by **Brad Walker** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:41 am

I'm in the process of building a bell kiln and would like to be able to hoist up the main part of the kiln (the bell) and then set it down several feet away. To do this, I believe I need a hoist that's mounted on some sort of track that can pick up the bell (less than 100 pounds) and then either swivel or roll on a track so that it can be set down again.

Any suggestions on how best to do this without spending a fortune?

Tony Smith · Post by **Tony Smith** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:46 am

Brad,

How much vertical lift will you need?

Tony

Carol · Post by **Carol** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:59 am

Hey Brad

Why do you need to swivel it out of the way? Why not just lift it vertically and leave it there? You will use up much less space that way. I'm in the process of designing a bell kiln myself (with Bert's help) and that's what we're shooting for. It will raise/lower on vertical runners so cotter pins can be inserted to hold the kiln in place up overhead without relying on just a cable. Takes up much less space that way...of course I have 10 ft ceiling, so that may be a factor.

Carol

PS How big will your bell be?

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:44 am

Brad Walker wrote:I'm in the process of building a bell kiln and would like to be able to hoist up the main part of the kiln (the bell) and then set it down several feet away. To do this, I believe I need a hoist that's mounted on some sort of track that can pick up the bell (less than 100 pounds) and then either swivel or roll on a track so that it can be set down again.

Any suggestions on how best to do this without spending a fortune?

http://www.northerntool.com

They have a 110 volt electric hoist and a Jet adjustable trolley that rides on an I beam. Add a snatch block and you're in business.

Randy W · Post by **Randy W** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 12:14 pm

Here is the set up I have in my garage for lifting engines.

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/74dodg ... yahoo.com/
I lucked out and got the "I" beam for free from a brick company that went out of business. Try your local iron works. The trolley and hoist are available from Harbor Freight.
The manual chain hoist costs $50, or $75 for an electric one. The trolley costs $60 or $100 for and electric one. You need to know how wide the "I" beam is so you know which trolley to get. They come in different widths.

Be sure to weld stoppers on the end of the beam to keep the trolley from rolling off the end. To attach the beam to the ceiling I welded angle iron to the beam the same spacing as the ceiling joists. Then bolted it up with the help of friends. Use large washers to keep the bolt head from sinking into the wood.

Randy

Brad Walker · Post by **Brad Walker** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:26 pm

Originally, I was going to just lift up and come back down in the same place, and a regular hoist would work fine for that. The bell has the elements (side and top); the bottom is just a welded frame with legs and a welded box to hold the fire bricks on which to sit a shelf. The shelf's at waist level, so you can work on a piece and not have to transport it to the kiln. Midway through the construction I got the idea of having two bottoms and being able to work on one while the other is firing, which I think effectively doubles my kiln capacity and only costs a few dollars for the second bottom frame.

The bell is 52" by 32" by 20" (outside dimensions) and will only need to be lifted up high enough to easily clear the work on the kiln shelf, probably around 18" max. It just needs to swivel enough to move from one bottom section to another (the two sections will be adjacent to each other with a small aisle in between). Ceiling height could be an issue for me, but floor space is not.

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out and see if one of them will work.

Jackie Beckman · Post by **Jackie Beckman** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:30 pm

Brad Walker wrote:Originally, I was going to just lift up and come back down in the same place, and a regular hoist would work fine for that. The bell has the elements (side and top); the bottom is just a welded frame with legs and a welded box to hold the fire bricks on which to sit a shelf. The shelf's at waist level, so you can work on a piece and not have to transport it to the kiln. Midway through the construction I got the idea of having two bottoms and being able to work on one while the other is firing, which I think effectively doubles my kiln capacity and only costs a few dollars for the second bottom frame.

The bell is 52" by 32" by 20" (outside dimensions) and will only need to be lifted up high enough to easily clear the work on the kiln shelf, probably around 18" max. It just needs to swivel enough to move from one bottom section to another (the two sections will be adjacent to each other with a small aisle in between). Ceiling height could be an issue for me, but floor space is not.

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out and see if one of them will work.

Phil Hoppes is also building a huge (4'x4') bell kiln and is also doing two "tables" but he is making them mobile rather than the hoist. Perhaps you should speak with him about this, Brad. The bottoms of the kilns are going to be on casters of some sort so that when he's working on one, the other will be firing.

charlie · Post by **charlie** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:31 pm

rather than swiveling, put a couple of v tracks in the floor and roll the entire lid/hoist assembly.

v tracks are used, for example, in driveway gates that are too wide or heavy to be supported by side hinges.

charlie holden · Post by **charlie holden** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:59 pm

I have a bell and two bases. One base is a table, the other is a nine inch deep kiln with wall elements. I use a manual chain hoist hanging from a trolley that rides on a 4 inch I beam. To hang the I beam I just welded plates across the top to line up with the joists with a hole in each side for bolts. The bottom of the hoist is a good 18 inches below the ceiling joists.

The I beam, 45 feet long, only cost about $60. The hoist and rigging came from a crane company so it is certified to carry the weight. I would not buy a cheap hoist to do this. It should be rated for overhead use.

The problem with rolling tables is vibration when rolling them into position. Stuff moves around on top. Also, if your floor is at all out of level then they can be a pain to adjust over and over.

One thing I have realized, you don't have to make the table the exact size as the bell. You can make it bigger. I'm thinking of making another, smaller bell for smaller jobs, maybe two that can run side by side on the same table. Then I would have three kilns and two bases -- one for big casting jobs that can anneal for days, and two to rotate fusing and slumping. I only need one hoist for all three.

Brad Walker · Post by **Brad Walker** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 2:35 pm

charlie holden wrote:The problem with rolling tables is vibration when rolling them into position. Stuff moves around on top. Also, if your floor is at all out of level then they can be a pain to adjust over and over.

Exactly. The advantage of a stationary table is the ability to lay out an intricate work on the table, which then becomes your kiln shelf. No kiln loading or pieces moving when you load, just lower the bell in place and fire. I'm afraid that if I put the base on rollers, I'll lose that advantage.

I also like the idea of different bases for different sizes, and may explore doing a deeper casting base with an additional set of elements to go along with what I'm working on. This kind of approach gives you a lot of flexibility in terms of kiln area and configuration.

Charlie, I don't understand how rolling the entire lid/hoist assembly would work. Do you have a photo or a link to a place that would help?

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 2:37 pm

charlie wrote:rather than swiveling, put a couple of v tracks in the floor and roll the entire lid/hoist assembly.

v tracks are used, for example, in driveway gates that are too wide or heavy to be supported by side hinges.

My big bell is set up with a rolling gantry which is 2 A frames connected by an Ibeam. The A frames are on grooved wheels that ride on the upside down angle iron V tracks. This is an excellent rig for me. I use a winch on the gantry to lift the bell up and down and chains to take the weight off of the winch cables

I can picture Brad getting away with an I beam and trolley attached to the ceiling. The aspect of this that I don't like is the vision of the bell free swinging as it is moved. I think that it needs some sort of stabilizer.

I think that moving the floor sucks because it can disturb the glass.

My floor design is not cheap, but it is perfectly levelable. I make a framework using speedrail and 1" ID iron pipes. Inside each iron pipe is a 1" bolt and nut. By adjusting the nuts, I can level the framework. The welded frame for the brick floor sits on top of the speedrail framework.

I really like it that I can get 360Âº access to my kiln floor and get my head over the glass to see that the setup is right.

Every problem as a myriad of creative solutions. Many of my best design features were offered by people who never saw a kiln before.

Carol · Post by **Carol** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 2:40 pm

[quote="Brad Walker"]Originally, I was going to just lift up and come back down in the same place, and a regular hoist would work fine for that. The bell has the elements (side and top); the bottom is just a welded frame with legs and a welded box to hold the fire bricks on which to sit a shelf. The shelf's at waist level, so you can work on a piece and not have to transport it to the kiln. Midway through the construction I got the idea of having two bottoms and being able to work on one while the other is firing, which I think effectively doubles my kiln capacity and only costs a few dollars for the second bottom frame.

What a fabulous idea...really maximizes firing time. I will be rethinking my shop layout and probably end up with hoist system or rolling gantry after all.

How did you come up with 52 x 32 for dimensions? Was it based on max area your available power would heat, economical use of materials in construction or something else?

Brad Walker · Post by **Brad Walker** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 4:17 pm

Carol wrote:How did you come up with 52 x 32 for dimensions? Was it based on max area your available power would heat, economical use of materials in construction or something else?

It's two 20" square shelves (total of 40" by 20" shelf space), plus fiber insulation and a little working space around the edges of the shelves. I want to be able to fire two 18" pieces simultaneously. With the safety factor, it also worked out to require around 40 amps, which was what I had available without upgrading my power.

Most of the refractory materials I used in the construction were leftover items I had around from other projects, so material cost wasn't a major factor. Still, even buying everything new would have been under $1000 for everything, including metal for the frames. (hoist hardware not included)

Right now all is done except the electrical wiring and the hoist/tracking mechanism.

Jack Bowman · Post by **Jack Bowman** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:10 pm

Brad,

This is Jack Bowman posting from a remote computer so I hope this works. Here is what I did.

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/xmissi ... yahoo.com/

If that wrap doesn't work, try this:

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/xmissionbobo/

Approx 3x5x1' inside. Lid weighs ~400lbs. Both table and hoist will roll. I will mostly move the table out to load and unload.

If you need any other info or higher resolution pics, let me know.

bobo1148@xmission.com

Jack, temporarily in beautiful British Columbia.

charlie · Post by **charlie** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:11 pm

Brad Walker wrote:Charlie, I don't understand how rolling the entire lid/hoist assembly would work. Do you have a photo or a link to a place that would help?

metal pulleys used as wheels. 90 degree steel angle brackets used as floor track. just wheel the whole thing from one table to the other. you won't need a hoist that travels. it just needs to go up/down, and you move the hoist frame instead.

Brian and Jenny Blanthorn · Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:37 pm

Brad Walker wrote:I'm in the process of building a bell kiln and would like to be able to hoist up the main part of the kiln (the bell) and then set it down several feet away. To do this, I believe I need a hoist that's mounted on some sort of track that can pick up the bell (less than 100 pounds) and then either swivel or roll on a track so that it can be set down again.

Any suggestions on how best to do this without spending a fortune?

Fly the kiln over with Spab Air

N I am shure he will lift it up 4 U no trouble

Just a few current buns 2 keep him happy

If U need this service often Spab Air will do U some deal

Kinda like a season ticket

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:38 pm

charlie wrote:
Brad Walker wrote:Charlie, I don't understand how rolling the entire lid/hoist assembly would work. Do you have a photo or a link to a place that would help?
metal pulleys used as wheels. 90 degree steel angle brackets used as floor track. just wheel the whole thing from one table to the other. you won't need a hoist that travels. it just needs to go up/down, and you move the hoist frame instead.

Northern Tools sells the steel wheels with V grooves. They run on upside down angle iron, V up. It would be nice to have a way to lower the bell down a bit to rest in place and raise it to roll.

Clifford Ross · Post by **Clifford Ross** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:15 pm

Consider the hoist sometimes used off the back of a pick-up truck. It can pick up quite a bit of weight and can swivel from one table kiln to another at 90 to 180 degrees from the first. El cheapo supremo!!!

Brian and Jenny Blanthorn · Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:45 am

Brad Walker wrote:I'm in the process of building a bell kiln and would like to be able to hoist up the main part of the kiln (the bell) and then set it down several feet away. To do this, I believe I need a hoist that's mounted on some sort of track that can pick up the bell (less than 100 pounds) and then either swivel or roll on a track so that it can be set down again.

Any suggestions on how best to do this without spending a fortune?

Thinking more on this cooling thing

If U wanted more production

U could build a light weight box just 4 anealing fuze the glass then swap the tops n start another firing

John · Post by **John** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:38 am

I have set up my kiln so that in the future I can run it with 2 bases.
I hoist the lid up with a 10:1 brake winch. It lifts from 4 points, once up in the air I put the 4 legs in each corner which have heavy duty hospital casters on them. the lid can then roll right out of the road to work on the base. In future hopefully onto the next base. a basic set up but those who have seen it think it must of cost a small fortune, but it cost very little. the hospital casterd are great to roll over concrete and being rubber they dont't jar the lid whilst moving.
John

WarmGlass.com

Hoist with track needed

Hoist with track needed

Re: Hoist with track needed

Re: Hoist with track needed

Re: Hoist with track needed