Gecko fusible

[tom suter]

I just read a flyer that Grecko glass sold by glascraft out of Texas is saying that this line is fuible at 109 COE. They have a downloadable file on firing schedule and annealing a pdf file. I tried to download it but it was not possible at this time. Anyone heard anything about this?

That has to be pretty soft glass at 109.

[Liam]

I have been in there show room and requested their color sheet of compatables twice, and they didn't have it in stock, and havnt sent it yet. I'm anoyed with that. The glass is dirt cheep, $1.50/ft or so. The big but: do you trust chinese made glass to be the same coe on each batch? Those samples were tested compatable once in Houston, but who says the next batch will be the same coe. Bottom line. Use there guide lines for compatable, but run your own tests on each glass.
Liam

[David Williams]

The big but: do you trust chinese made glass to be the same coe on each batch?

The issue of Chinese glass and supplies seems to come up a lot lately. I think it really is a good subject for discussion because it will be greatly affecting all our lives in the years to come. Not only as glass workers but just citizens and participants in the global economy. It would be nice to delve deeper into the subject than the same old griping about Chinese finished glass and mistrust of suppliers. There are productive ways we can discuss the global economy, the future of the American worker, tons of stuff.

But I have to say this one thing strikes me as a uniquely American kind of ignorance: Can you imagine if someone got a product from a company in say, Texas. And say that product wasn't of good quality. In fact, say a whole bunch of people got bad products from Texas. Not specifying any particular company, or even a PARTICULAR INDUSTRY these folks get together and start viewing all "Texas merchandise" with suspicion. Think about it. How many companies are there in just one medium sized CITY in Texas that produce merchandise? Now think of how large China is. Man its bigger than you can ever even IMAGINE. There are hundreds of thousands if not MILLIONS of companies that produce over there that we have never heard about. So can you see how absurd it is to ask if you can trust "Chinese glass"? There are good companies and bad companies just like here.

[Brock]

Very good point David. This same xenophobia is rampant on the stained glass boards, to the point that some people are saying they won't buy Armstrong Glass anymore, as the company moved all it's manufacturing to China. Look around your house, shoes, clothes, utensils, you'll be amazed how many things come from China. The global economy is here. Brock

[Barbara Muth]

H*ll, we are global.

Barbara

[dee]

I just read a flyer that Grecko glass sold by glascraft out of Texas is saying that this line is fuible at 109 COE. They have a downloadable file on firing schedule and annealing a pdf file. I tried to download it but it was not possible at this time. Anyone heard anything about this?

That has to be pretty soft glass at 109.

i had heard of gecko coming out with a fusible line in early dec from a couple who are selling fused glass at shows, they are local to me - i think for price they were gonna try the gecko glass but i haven't run into them since - i have also seen the flyer from houston glass craft but haven't tried to d/l the file - have you emailed houston glass craft about the pdf file? has anyone talked to them about the glass? while not wanting to bring out the xenophobia of dealing with items mfg'd overseas, this would be something to discuss with suppliers of gecko fusible and see if gecko has provided them with info on quality control, both for compatibility and reliability of color from batch to batch....

meanwhile i'll try to get in touch with the local couple who may have started using it....
D

[Liam]

Ya but:

I trust chinese armstrong glass because Ive tried it. I truly believe that it's made to Armstrongs specifications.
but I don't like Gecco glass because it's breakes and flexes in the strangest way, and it's pretty uninteresting. Spectrum glass is much more interesting, yikes!!

A story from a friend, and I think it's true. A man goes to china to show a company how to make suncatchers. The model he gives them gets slightly damaged on the flight. When the first shipment arives every single suncatcher has the same dent. Hard workers, yes. Original thinkers, I don't think so. Give them credit for gunpowder, pasta and tomatoes and cheap labor. They can make mountains of inexpensive toos, but can they make the tools beter?

[dblood]

No offense, there, but that sure doesn't sound like a true story. Sounds like an "urban legend" kind of anecdote. Makes it sound like Chinese people are stupid, which they're not.

[dblood]

I apologize if that sounds contentious; just putting in my two cents

[Carol B]

Bottom line. Use there guide lines for compatable, but run your own tests on each glass.
Liam

If the quality of thier glass beads are any indication of the quality of thier glass then I would say yes.

I work for a very large importer of glass beads, mostly from the Czech Republic. We have been working closely with a number of Chinese bead manufacturers for a several years. The quality is good and getting better all the time.

Carol

[Brock]

As the Chinese tool up tp compete globally, they are buying the most advanced technology. leapfrogging countries mired in antiquated manufacturing processes. I am old enough to remember when "Made in Japan" was an epithet for cheap shoddy goods. Not any more. And, the wages in China are probably much higher than you realize, and rapidly rising:

http://www.globalinsight.com/Perspectiv ... ail287.htm

And one last thing, it isn't the NUMBER of Dollars/Euros/Yen, that you make that is important, it is the purchasing power of your currency. Wages may seem low, but the standard of living is skyrocketing. Brock

[Gale aka artistefem]

Think about the mindset of a people who have worked under a totalitarian socialist regime for how many years? Where government and enterprise have not been separated.

China is presently in the grip of a massive economic and cultural restructuring. There co-exists state run centralized economic development and the newly developing independant enterprise where each man is his own master (which is a fairly new concept for the Chinese people). Unfortunately, this restructuring will move slowly due to the lack of the basic physical underpinings that promote and support change.

Another point that slow this progress is the Chinese basic societal structure. It is still collective based, with each individual responsible to and for the success of the group/town/village/community. Independant thinking, "outside the box" has not been encouraged, in fact has been actively discouraged in China.

So it follows that workers endorsing the work conditions they are familiar and comfortable with, will produce exact replicas of whatever they are presented with for manufacture. In China, as within any socialist community, this "exact" toeing of the line is where the individual receives his/her group sanctioned accolades.

The question is: where does the compatibility testing happen - who's doing the testing?

I would still test the glass............

[Alecia Helton]

The bottom line is: if Gecko Fusible wants to be a major supplier they will have to become as good as Spectrum and Bullseye. No company, Chinese, European or American, can start from scratch and compete with the top suppliers in an industry. But if they want to stay in the business and not lose their shirt after the first couple of years they will have to learn fast.

The unfair advantage that many Chinese companies have -- don't know if Gecko Glass falls in this category -- is massive infusions of government cash. They can afford to lose money until they learn to get it right. If they have government money they will quickly get their processes up to the standards we expect. Their marketing savvy is keen. Unlike many American companies who try to reinvent the wheel, the Chinese will observe which marketing strategy is successful and copy it. They will learn they must have consistent COEs in order to get customers and must be able to prove it in advance to their customers.

They will also achieve whatever quality standards Sandberg requires to offer coatings on their glass. And if we demand interesting colors, they will give us interesting colors.

As many of you have already said, the global economy is here. The problems for us as artists is we will have to rely on our creativity and not make things that just anyone can make. I'm only paraphrasing what someone on the Board posted several weeks ago.

Since I'm fairly new at this and still learning and perfecting technique, doing that is going to be a lot easier for many of you than me.

Alecia

[Cheryl]

I think it's ridiculous that Gecko is introducing a third COE to the fusing world. It's not like BE, Uroboros or Spectrum has an exhaustive inventory of colors -- why not contribute to the world by developing new colors for an existing line??

[Alecia Helton]

Cheryl,

You're thinking like a customer. We don't need and don't want a third coe standard. Gecko probably doesn't wasn't to support either BE or Spectrum by supplementing their standards. OR the only coe they can consistently produce is 109.

Alecia

[Liam]

Gecco glass was not designed to be compatable. It just happens to be. Well some of it that is. They must have 100 differnent colours by now. With that amout of glass, some is bound to be compatable. In the Glasscraft show room they have several sheets of fired compatable chip tests. I wouldn't be suprised if these were the same tests used to decide compatablity for there fusing line. I'm almost certain that they wern't designed compatable during manufacture. If this is true, they arn't designed compatable, the batch glass may change thus changing the coe. I have fused some Gecco same sheet glass and it seems to behave similar to BE as far as temperature is concerned. Incidently Glasscraft has beens slowly fazing out BE fusing glass, much to my dispair.
Another small item. I tried the glass in a torch and it is very hard to get used too. I can't describe it exactly, it's just very hard to work with. It seems to flow poorly. I only used one colour so when I get my bead anealer up again, I'll give it a more complete workover and let you know. Maybe santa will ship me some samples to try,, anyone listening...
Now there are at least 3 glass artists working for glasscraft. If there is a glasscraft representative listening in, (and there should be) please give us the scoop on coe consistancy.
Liam

[daffodildeb]

I'm a little surprised at the comment that it is rather uninteresting. I frequently go to the wholesaler (I live in the Houston area), and there is a tremendous range of color, texture, mix, etc. I think Spectrum is rather tame in comparison! Having said that, I will admit that I usually fuse with Bullseye and Uroboros, and do a lot of 90 COE dichro. That's partly because of my obsession with dichro, though. Gecko is cheap, and I wish I could use it in my pendants.

To get the pdf file, go to http://www.glasscraft.net, and you can get the full range of Gecko glass in the GlassCraft Supply section. Click on Sheet Glass, and at the bottom right of the page you'll find a statement that it is fusable. Click on that and you'll get the pdf file with schedules, etc.

As for cutting, a lot of the cutting issues relate to some of their older glass. It isn't necessarily true for the current glass. I've had a number of their people tell me this, and they have also demonstrated at the warehouse with specific pieces of glass.

[Rebecca M.]

I think it's ridiculous that Gecko is introducing a third COE to the fusing world. It's not like BE, Uroboros or Spectrum has an exhaustive inventory of colors -- why not contribute to the world by developing new colors for an existing line??

Cheryl, what about 104COE and whatever COE float is? That's five different. Personally I don't care where it comes from and who made it as long as I like it. But I can't even sort my socks. How would I ever keep track of all that? I'm just now starting to tell the difference between BE and Spectrum, and only sheet glass at that. Plus my new shelves to keep them separate help sooo much. I just don't have the space or time to experiment with anything else.

[Cheryl]

I find that the more I work with glass, the less I really understand - and the more I need to know! For example, my current pieces are in the 1 foot by 2 foot range, and from 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick. That demands an immensely complex firing schedule - and they're each fired at least 4-5 times (and each schedule for each firing is different). I can't imagine having the time to establish the depth of knowledge needed in more than 1 COE, not to mention (as someone just did) having to keep the studio truly segregated.

My guess is they want to hop on the fusing bandwagon. I just wish they'd do it sensibly!

[daffodildeb]

I work with several COEs plus dichro. You're right, it requires a great deal of diligence to keep them separated. One suggestion, keep multiple plastic shoe or sweater boxes labeled both top and sides for the smaller pieces. Anything too big to fit there should have the COE in black permanent marker shown in several places, along with brand. For big pieces I have a 90 only shelf, 104 only shelf, etc., and never the twain shall meet--on opposite sides of the room. The entire work table is cleared off between COE changes.

As for learning the different types of glass, you might try working with a local stained glass store, and also getting sample sets of the brands you think you'll be working with. For example, I have Spectrum's set, Bullseye, etc. It doesn't cost all that much, especially compared to the loss if you accidentally mix them, and you at least have the glass to use up at a later date if you decide.

Fusing packs are another option, too. And they usually have some sort of emblem/sticker to help you out.

BTW, don't forget to label tubes of stringers, dichro rods, etc. They all can look alike, especially now that there are so many more color choices within a given brand name. Even Moretti and Bullseye have aventurine sheet glass lines now. About the only thing that hasn't changed is the COE of millefiore, but don't hold your breath!

I don't do this with lampworking though, since it's too easy to grab the wrong thing while working with the flame. All my rods are 104.