sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

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seachange
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:19 am

sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by seachange »

Hi,

A while ago I had asked for help to choose some protective clothing for combing - post was probably just before all older posts got lost, can't find it now.

Just wanted to share what I bought, in case it is useful.

From Artco (US) ordered 1 pair TH PB@@ 240 - 14F, 14" mitts, plus an 18" pair for my husband, in case he has to help me in the beginning of this new experiments.
Also their gold coated face shield + head mount - they have separate part numbers. Don't have the numbers because Artco was out of stock, and I ended up finding it in Australia, but it is the identical product from the same US manufacturer.

Also bought their GB - LG - 15C9 green glasses, which are fantastic for looking into the kiln for a short time to check things. Since I have them my eyes feel a lot better. They protect from IR radiation and the heat as well, while one can still see clearly. Wish I had had a pair much earlier. I had bought some welder glasses before, but they are far too dark.

From http://www.asiprotectiveclothing.com the 30" open back coat - 17 oz. aluminized carbon Kevlar. Haven't received it yet. Decided on this one because they make it to one's size if requested at no extra cost. I sent my bust size measured over the clothes I would normally wear underneath it. It is open at the back, so not so hot in summer. It seems to have a high neck, which is probably good - although the gold shield is quite long and protects the neck area well. Also, taking it all into account, it seems reasonably priced.

Many thanks to the board members who helped me with suggestions and advice.

Best regards, seachange
Marty
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Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by Marty »

How about just a pulley/cable/counterweight system to take care of the lid, a pair of fireplace (or furnace) gloves and a 3 foot handle on the rake? That all worked today for a combing demo here in my (accursed) Evenheat tub.

Oh, and shorts, T shirt and safety sandals. You're not opening the kiln that much or for that long. Get the shelf up high on bricks nearer the elements so you don't have to reach down into the kiln.
seachange
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:19 am

Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by seachange »

Marty wrote:How about just a pulley/cable/counterweight system to take care of the lid, a pair of fireplace (or furnace) gloves and a 3 foot handle on the rake? That all worked today for a combing demo here in my (accursed) Evenheat tub.

Hi Marty,

That's very true about the lid, it is somewhat unwieldly to lift, though ok when using both hands. But a problem when raking, because one would have to hold it up with only one hand. Some form of lid system is part of our plans for when the kiln is installed in its final location, this will be a shed that hasn't been built yet. I also think the lid system is important because otherwise one has to bring the body too close to the kiln to rake.

Oh, and shorts, T shirt and safety sandals. You're not opening the kiln that much or for that long. Get the shelf up high on bricks nearer the elements so you don't have to reach down into the kiln.

Well, don't think I want to picture this in my mind, it sounds like a recipe for instant depilation :D :D...really don't know how you did it.

Thanks for the tip about the height, will remember that. The raking time is rather short, would think max 20 second or so till the glass cools down too much, but do remember from Patty's demo that the heat coming out of the kiln (also a bath tub type kiln ) was enormous. She was wearing gloves (kevlar I think), a leather welder's jacket, and a normal shield which I thought would melt down into a puddle any second, but only distorted a bit. She had a helper to lift the lid, with the arm protected to the elbow by a glove.

And I like myself the way I am, with eyebrows and hair on my head, so don't want to take too many chances with my beauty :wink: . May be it is a woman's thing :)


Would you mind telling why "accursed" Evenheat? Mine is second hand, not using it yet, therefore absolutely no experience. Needs some repairs to the lid first and conversion to 3 phase.

Since we have to work on it, may be we can add things or make changes to make it work better?


Many thanks for your help, seachange
Marty
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Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by Marty »

pulley- cable attached to lid handle going straight up to a pulley hanging from the rafter, over to another pulley about 4 ft from the front of the kiln and down to about where you'd be standing, with enough counterweight at the end to make the effort needed to lift only a 5-10lb pull.
(I've also done this with a foot pedal to free both hands)

distance- standing about 4 ft from the Accursed Evenheat (more on that below) with the lid open 4-5 inches at most, you feel the warmth but don't get fried. Like you said, you're only in there for 20 seconds max before you have to close and reheat. My rake is a 3 pronged garden tool inserted in a long aluminum tube so I'm getting 3 trails in one pass. Don't forget to turn the juice off before you open the lid.

kiln- I cannot recommend buying the 2541. It was my first kiln and served well until I needed to replace the lid a couple of years ago. EH had widened the element grooves (presumably to make it easier to install and remove elements) with the result that the elements droop with each firing. When I complained I was told to use pins to keep them in. I'd always thought that pushing pins into a brick lid was the last resort, leading to shmoo on one's glass and the eventual failure of the brick. EH's customer service wasn't.
seachange
Posts: 223
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Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by seachange »

Hi Marty

Many thanks for pulley details, I am thinking that for me 3 to 4 feet standing distance should be all right, to still have enough control of the rake. Have it all noted for when we get the shed built - planned for 2013, if nothing else gets in the way.

Happy you told me about the new lid...convinced me that repairing the one we have is a better way to go (the other convincing argument is that here a new lid would cost me $1500 plus quite a bit for transport from the mainland). Being an old model, the channels are narrow, but somewhat widened by years of use with the coils contracting and expanding.

We are planning to use pyrolite compound (a mixture of silica and ceramic fibers and ethynel glycol) used for fixing refractories, to hold the coils up in the channel. Also pins as additional safety measure, embeded in the brick with a coating of the pyrolite, this will hopefully keep them firmly in place. Then we are going to coat the whole inside of the lid with a kiln cement mix - both products are from Paragon, got them last week.

As a final step we are going to chant soothing encantations to the kiln gods, asking that it all works and lasts for a while :wink:

One would think that after so many years of building kilns, someone would have come up with a good solution that doesn't cost an arm and a leg...it seems we'll have to wait a bit longer for this.

I very much appreciate your help,

Best regards, seachange.
G's
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:43 am
Location: Near Great Falls, Montana

Re: Raking

Post by G's »

Hi, I have a Janus Ovation Kiln from Paragon. It is a large oval kiln. I have been wondering how to do combing in such a large kiln with coils in the lid of the kiln. From what I've read here, I'd need a pulley system for the lid and all of the protective gear (and face shield). The pieces to be combed would be set very high just under the elements... Does anyone use a Janus Ovation Kiln for this process? Do you use it to comb several pieces in one firing ? Do you open the lid completely or just crack it wide enough to comb into? If there are many pieces in the kiln to be combed, must they be reheated to allow combing of all of them?

What was your 3 pronged garden rake made out of? Stainless Steel?

I have a small jewelry kiln that I tried to comb pieces in twice. Both times I ruined the kiln elements and shelf because the glass ran out between the dams. It seems that the small kiln could not heat fast enough to reach my target combing temperature (1700 degrees F) and, due to the extended firing time at lower temperatures, the glass overfired. Does anyone have a COE 90 firing schedule for combing at lower temperatures, say around 1400 or 1500?

Thanks!
Ginny
G's
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Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:43 am
Location: Near Great Falls, Montana

Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by G's »

seachange wrote:Hi Marty
We are planning to use pyrolite compound (a mixture of silica and ceramic fibers and ethynel glycol) used for fixing refractories, to hold the coils up in the channel. Also pins as additional safety measure, embeded in the brick with a coating of the pyrolite, this will hopefully keep them firmly in place. Then we are going to coat the whole inside of the lid with a kiln cement mix - both products are from Paragon, got them last week.
Hi Seachange,
Do I understand you correctly in that you are coating the kiln elements and kiln brick with the pyrolite compound? Or just the kiln brick in the lid?
Thanks,
Ginny
bob proulx
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Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by bob proulx »

I am thinking of raking for the first time. I was looking at designing a pulley system so Marty your info is great. What do you do so the rake does not drag on the shelf and pick up kiln wash into the glass.
Great discussion:
Bob
Brock
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Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by Brock »

bob proulx wrote:I am thinking of raking for the first time. I was looking at designing a pulley system so Marty your info is great. What do you do so the rake does not drag on the shelf and pick up kiln wash into the glass.
Great discussion:
Bob
Don't push down so hard. The viscosity of the glass and the weight of the rake will dictate the speed you can go.
bob proulx
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Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by bob proulx »

Thanks Brock.
Bob
seachange
Posts: 223
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Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by seachange »

G's wrote:
seachange wrote:Hi Marty
We are planning to use pyrolite compound (a mixture of silica and ceramic fibers and ethynel glycol) used for fixing refractories, to hold the coils up in the channel. Also pins as additional safety measure, embeded in the brick with a coating of the pyrolite, this will hopefully keep them firmly in place. Then we are going to coat the whole inside of the lid with a kiln cement mix - both products are from Paragon, got them last week.
Hi Seachange,
Do I understand you correctly in that you are coating the kiln elements and kiln brick with the pyrolite compound? Or just the kiln brick in the lid?
Thanks,
Ginny
Hi Ginny,

Sorry for the delay in replying. I am going to use the pyrolite compound to hold the elements up into the lid channels. One needs to place small blobs of the compound in the channel, then press one loop of the kiln element against it...definitely no coating with the pyrolite.

Have a look through the Paragon website, from memory they have an explanation of this and some pictures...at least I think I saw them there. Have been very busy in the last few weeks with some projects...feels like coming back from another planet :wink:

Then we are going to insert element pins, coating the prongs of the pin that go into the brick with pyrolite, hoping this will keep them in place for a long time...at least longer than without the compound.

Then we are going to coat the kiln bricks with Paragon's mix, though one can also use diluted kiln cement for this. This is only on the bricks, the elements should be kept free of any coating.

Hope this helps. We haven't done this yet, because other things are not quite ready, but it will be soon.

Cheers, seachange
Geo
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Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by Geo »

Are you saying that you are going to coat the pins with pyrolite first, then insert the pins into the firebrick? Please let us know how that works out for you.
seachange
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:19 am

Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by seachange »

Geo wrote:Are you saying that you are going to coat the pins with pyrolite first, then insert the pins into the firebrick? Please let us know how that works out for you.
Hi Geo

That's the basic idea, we'll see...will report back when it is all done.

Cheers, seachange
S.TImmerman
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Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by S.TImmerman »

[quote="Marty"]pulley- cable attached to lid handle going straight up to a pulley hanging from the rafter, over to another pulley about 4 ft from the front of the kiln and down to about where you'd be standing, with enough counterweight at the end to make the effort needed to lift only a 5-10lb pull.
(I've also done this with a foot pedal to free both hands)

distance- standing about 4 ft from the Accursed Evenheat (more on that below) with the lid open 4-5 inches at most, you feel the warmth but don't get fried. Like you said, you're only in there for 20 seconds max before you have to close and reheat. My rake is a 3 pronged garden tool inserted in a long aluminum tube so I'm getting 3 trails in one pass. Don't forget to turn the juice off before you open the lid.

Would this work on a Skutt Clam shell as well? Do you attach it to the handle?

Thanks so much!
Shereen
Marty
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Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by Marty »

yes and yes
G's
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:43 am
Location: Near Great Falls, Montana

Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by G's »

seachange wrote: We are planning to use pyrolite compound (a mixture of silica and ceramic fibers and ethynel glycol) used for fixing refractories, to hold the coils up in the channel. Also pins as additional safety measure, embeded in the brick with a coating of the pyrolite, this will hopefully keep them firmly in place. Then we are going to coat the whole inside of the lid with a kiln cement mix - both products are from Paragon, got them last week.
Hi Seachange,
How did this work out for you? I just opened my kiln and saw that one of my large pieces has a fleck of kiln brick fused on the surface... Arrgh! Can I prevent flecks from falling from the lid by coating the underside of the lid with a kiln cement mix? Does anyone else have tips to avoid this problem?
Thanks,
Ginny
seachange
Posts: 223
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:19 am

Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by seachange »

Hi Ginny

We are in the process of doing this - with some interruptions in-between, like being away for a couple of days. Just replaced pieces of broken bricks before we can tighten the band that holds the lid together. Plus setting up the controller etc, so it will still take us probably another 2 to 3 weeks till I can really test it thoroughly.

Best wishes, seachange
DonMcClennen
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Re: sharing my choices of protective clothing for combing

Post by DonMcClennen »

I"m sure opening the kiln at high temps to comb is increasing the brick stress in the lid, thus more chunks falling into your work. The 2541 and kilns like it were not designed with this use in mind. A fibre kiln with enclosed elements would seem to suit the opening and combing function better.
Don
"The Glassman"
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