LIQUID GLASS................CMC.............Alternatives

[Havi]

Hi everybody,
I want to try doing some liquid glass. Could not find preparation instructions on the archives [perhaps I did not seek properly]
However, found later instructions in La Londe's book. Fine.

I have at home methyll celuslose powder - I understand that it is NOT CMC , am I right? The container is sealed, so I do not want to open it, if it is not CMC. [-and try]
I also have corn starch [pure, for archivers] Can I use this perhaps as the alternative glue for the powder?
I also have klyr fire glue - can this be a subtitue for the CMC?

Especially considering that I want the glass to be quite liquidy - like honey, say.

I'd be grateful for your imputs, experience etc.
Many thanks in advance,
Havi

[Brad Walker]

I have at home methyll celuslose powder - I understand that it is NOT CMC , am I right? The container is sealed, so I do not want to open it, if it is not CMC. [-and try]
I also have corn starch [pure, for archivers] Can I use this perhaps as the alternative glue for the powder?
I also have klyr fire glue - can this be a subtitue for the CMC?

CMC is carboxyl methyl cellulose, so what you have may or may not be the same thing. That said, there are many different varieties and strengths of CMC, so you may need to do some experimentation to find the right ratio of CMC to water. Once you mix it up, you can dilute as desired, but it's better to mix thick and dilute than try to mix thin in the first place.

I don't think cornstarch would work, but never tried it. I believe Klyr-fire is methyl ethyl cellulose, a close relative of CMC, but have never tried using it either.

[Valerie Adams]

I did some experiments once with a thickening product I had called Konjac Glucomannan powder. I mixed it with water and glass powder and squeezed it out of a hole in a small plastic baggie. It was the consistency of toothpaste and held its shape very well when fired. So I think cornstarch might be worth a try, although the cellulose powder you already have is probably correct.

[Brock]

I use KCP in curries . . .

[Buttercup]

Brock, don't tempt me...add some glass powder and a whole new art form is born.........

[haleybach]

I have at home methyll celuslose powder - I understand that it is NOT CMC , am I right? The container is sealed, so I do not want to open it, if it is not CMC. [-and try]
I also have corn starch [pure, for archivers] Can I use this perhaps as the alternative glue for the powder?
I also have klyr fire glue - can this be a subtitue for the CMC?

CMC is carboxyl methyl cellulose, so what you have may or may not be the same thing. That said, there are many different varieties and strengths of CMC, so you may need to do some experimentation to find the right ratio of CMC to water. Once you mix it up, you can dilute as desired, but it's better to mix thick and dilute than try to mix thin in the first place.

I don't think cornstarch would work, but never tried it. I believe Klyr-fire is methyl ethyl cellulose, a close relative of CMC, but have never tried using it either.

They are not the same thing, but close.
Methyl will dissolve better in cold water and have less adhesive quality than the Carboxl variety. Less body or structure too, which might be a good quality for some applications. I believe this is due to it being a shorter chain, chemically, but most of my understanding of organic chemistry, which never was all that clear to start with, is foggy.

I've never tried methyl with glass but it is another of the cellulose or plant based additives used in food, pharmaceuticals, paper, and so on. I would imagine it would burn just as clean if it is food or pharmaceutical grade. Museums use both in conservation work.

[Dairy Queen]

I use a very weak cornstarch when I run out of Glass Tac. It totally burns off. If I need something thick, I use dish soap- straight. I bought some CMC from Brad, and find there is very little difference.

[Studiodunn]

Has anyone tried honey? I have been wondering about that lately, but haven't had a chance to investigate it further.

[Havi]

They are not the same thing, but close.
Methyl will dissolve better in cold water and have less adhesive quality than the Carboxl variety. Less body or structure too, which might be a good quality for some applications. I believe this is due to it being a shorter chain, chemically, but most of my understanding of organic chemistry, which never was all that clear to start with, is foggy.

I've never tried methyl with glass but it is another of the cellulose or plant based additives used in food, pharmaceuticals, paper, and so on. I would imagine it would burn just as clean if it is food or pharmaceutical grade. Museums use both in conservation work.[/quote]
That's amazing Haley, an Israeli glassie said she could buy very cheaply CMC at bakers' shops where they make cake icings and similar. And I though she was mistaken somehow, but your words seem to support this attitude.

Anyhow, I have already bought some CMC, and will probabley try it later. I am busy now with another experiment as you can see on the board - mesh melt.

Thanks a lot,
your imput is very helpful [as well as others']

Havi

[Morganica]

I have tried the following substitutes for CMC:
--Honey (worked just fine but if you use it outside you WILL attract bees)
--Fake maple syrup (worked fine)
--Simple sugar syrup and Karo (corn) syrup (worked fine)
--Peanut butter (OK, that one was on a dare, but it worked. Heat it up and make it runny and don't get the chunky kind)
--Melted beeswax (I was seeing if I could do encaustic style glasswork, which stunk like heck when it burned out in the kiln and didn't give me what I wanted but gave me a lot of ideas)
--Chewing gum (long story but it is fabulous for some things)
--Hairspray (buy a cheap schpritzer bottle, open it up and use it straight from the bottle. It will stick ANYthing to ANYthing.)
--Library paste and mucilage
--Printmaker's gum arabic (which I use in pate de verre anyway and it's absolutely the most sensible choice here)

What didn't work:
--Vaseline (petroleum product, hard to control and leaves a black residue)
--Elmer's glue (at least the variety I used, diluted with water, left a brown residue)

Basically, if it's a sticky, gluey completely organic substance that dries to a mostly non-sticky state, hard or flexible, it will probably work just fine. I get my CMC at a confectioner's supply shop (as Haley says) and they also carry any number of gum/syrup products there that would do the job.

[Georgia Novak]

Cynthia: Your stories sound interesting. Are they on your blog? Would love to read them. Georgia

[Havi]

I have tried the following substitutes for CMC:
--Honey (worked just fine but if you use it outside you WILL attract bees)
--Fake maple syrup (worked fine)
--Simple sugar syrup and Karo (corn) syrup (worked fine)
--Peanut butter (OK, that one was on a dare, but it worked. Heat it up and make it runny and don't get the chunky kind)
--Melted beeswax (I was seeing if I could do encaustic style glasswork, which stunk like heck when it burned out in the kiln and didn't give me what I wanted but gave me a lot of ideas)
--Chewing gum (long story but it is fabulous for some things)
--Hairspray (buy a cheap schpritzer bottle, open it up and use it straight from the bottle. It will stick ANYthing to ANYthing.)
--Library paste and mucilage
--Printmaker's gum arabic (which I use in pate de verre anyway and it's absolutely the most sensible choice here)

What didn't work:
--Vaseline (petroleum product, hard to control and leaves a black residue)
--Elmer's glue (at least the variety I used, diluted with water, left a brown residue)

Basically, if it's a sticky, gluey completely organic substance that dries to a mostly non-sticky state, hard or flexible, it will probably work just fine. I get my CMC at a confectioner's supply shop (as Haley says) and they also carry any number of gum/syrup products there that would do the job.

Cynthia,
May I have your permission to copy / paste this to the Israeli board?
It would solve many problems which have been discussed there lately.


I shall say it is your statement - which I trust a lot.


Thanks,
Havi

[Morganica]

Certainly. Thanks.

[Dairy Queen]

Yes, thank you Cynthia. But honey? Does beeswax contain petrolium?

[Morganica]

Beeswax, pure beeswax, comes from bees so it has no petroleum. If it's mixed with other waxes or adulterants, it might.

[Morganica]

Cynthia: Your stories sound interesting. Are they on your blog? Would love to read them. Georgia

Some of them. I don't think I've written up the peanut butter or the wax yet.

[Dairy Queen]

Thank you, again, Cynthia. When you first mentioned peanut butter, I was looking for the punch line. I was sure you were joking.

[Morganica]

Nope. Real peanut butter is just peanuts, sometimes with a little bit of oil, so it stays soft and malleable when you mix it with glass powder. Makes a sort of glass clay although it doesn't take detail very well. It's useful when you have to pack powder into a tight undercut space, although it compacts tremendously.

That means that it won't completely fill the space after firing, but sometimes all you want is a thin layer of glass when you're correcting a pate de verre sculpture. I typically use "wax bondo," i.e., a mix of lard and beeswax, for that, but the peanut butter literally has more sticking power on undersides once you've loaded it with glass powder.

It wouldn't be a great choice for CMC linework, in other words, but it would work. It also smells like you're burning the peanut butter cookies when you fire.

[pshash]

I bought my CMC from a local pottery store and have had it in the fridge for years. Check your local pottery stores.

[bob proulx]

I bought my CMC from a local pottery store and have had it in the fridge for years. Check your local pottery stores.

I have had my cmc for over a year in a Balls canning jar, I do not put it in the fridge and it is fine.
Bob