Terrible luck ordering shelves

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Ed Cantarella
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Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Ed Cantarella »

This is a new problem for me after 12+ shelves. I order some from one place - 15" shelf has a depression about 1 mm deep, in about a 4" swath running from side to side. Other side has blobs of clay on it and squiggles and scratched in the face probably 1 mm deep. Ditto (squigly/scratches) on the 13" round I ordered for the new kiln we just received for the wife's b-day. BOth sides. They (The Ceramic SHop http://www.theceramicshop.com) are fighting against giving me even part of my money back. So in meantime I figure I'll order from somewhere else. Oh dear, these are even worse - not only deep scratches and caked with filth on one side, but there is a 2"(short side) triangle about 1 mm deep, on one corner of both sides of the square. The round was worse than the other one - no wash in the world could fill those pits. What the!
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Last edited by Ed Cantarella on Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Ed Cantarella
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Ed Cantarella »

Where is a great place to buy shelves?
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Brad Walker
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Brad Walker »

The best kiln shelves are probably from Bullseye, but they're also among the most expensive.
Ed Cantarella
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Ed Cantarella »

Thanks Brad.

Just looked. Hmm, for the "flattest shelves possible"(BE's words), it would be worth the extra $15-20 on a 15" square if it spares us the coldwork on just one piece that is transparent, where the work is glaringly obvious until the final stages. :evil:
I think our best shelves must be something like theirs, a mix of cordierite and mullite. These clay things are the pits :lol:
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Kevin Midgley
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Kevin Midgley »

Go to a large pottery supplier in your area.
Ask when they are getting a new shipment of shelves.
Physically go through and sort out the shelves you want to buy.

The reason there are scratches in them is because 'the best' kiln shelves come from England in wooden crates packed with straw. If the straw shifts, the scratching can occur.
You have to look through the crates before they are casually unpacked by pottery type people. Potters do not worry about small scratches.
I got perfect mullite shelves that way.
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Brad Walker »

Kevin Midgley wrote:Go to a large pottery supplier in your area.
Ask when they are getting a new shipment of shelves.
Physically go through and sort out the shelves you want to buy.
Most of the shelves in my area are from Mexico, not England. I one went through an entire shipment of shelves and was unable to find a single one suitable for fusing. You're right that pottery people don't care about scratches, and unfortunately most shelves are for pottery people.

One other option for smaller shelves -- get a pizza stone. Good up to 2000F and usually pretty smooth and flat.
Ed Cantarella
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Ed Cantarella »

Update - the Ceramic Shop http://www.theceramicshop.com has simply stopped communicating with me. Niiiiiiiiiice. :evil:

It would cost me more in gas to drive to the largest pottery shop near me and it might just be a wasted trip, than what the difference between these and one from BE would be. I'll take Brad's suggestion and just order from BUllseye on my next big order. No discount percentage but still, at least it will be clean and well wrapped when it gets here.
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Barry Kaiser
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Barry Kaiser »

Note: most if not all kiln manufacturers will have shelves and (probably) a lot cheaper than BE
Kevin Midgley
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Kevin Midgley »

Just fill the divots with thick Bullseye kiln wash.
Scrape or sand smooth any way you figure will work but wear a dust respirator.
Then once smooth, coat the entire shelves as per usual and fire as per normal.
Helps to do the filling while the shelves are warm as in slightly above boiling temperature so they dry completely.

As for the shelf company not wanting to talk to you, given that pretty much all shelves come that way from the manufacturer so they have no control over what they get to sell, I might also stop talking with you. :lol:

The time you spent squawking about defective shelves could be better used to fix them and make glass. #-o
However it certainly is a PITA.
Ed Cantarella
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Ed Cantarella »

Kevin Midgley wrote:Just fill the divots with thick Bullseye kiln wash.
Scrape or sand smooth any way you figure will work but wear a dust respirator.
Then once smooth, coat the entire shelves as per usual and fire as per normal.
Helps to do the filling while the shelves are warm as in slightly above boiling temperature so they dry completely.

As for the shelf company not wanting to talk to you, given that pretty much all shelves come that way from the manufacturer so they have no control over what they get to sell, I might also stop talking with you. :lol:

The time you spent squawking about defective shelves could be better used to fix them and make glass. #-o
However it certainly is a PITA.
Appreciate the thoughts Kevin but I have lots of shelves without these kind of nasties in them - and accepting these would mean I have to do this patch-up dance for the remainder of the shelve's useful life. . . . And thickly built-up kiln wash areas are highly prone to coming off and lodging into the glass piece. The one with 4" wide swath that is 1 mm lower than rest of board can't be leveled with wash. I don't believe in putting wash on a warm, porous item since the human hand is an extremely poor measuring device for temperature and there is no point in potentially thermally shocking and cracking a shelf or mold. Much safer for it to be applied cold and brought UP to temperature (candled) imo.

Update - we agreed on a refund amount, I will chop them into dams,etc.
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Kevin Midgley
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Kevin Midgley »

My kiln wash lasts a long time on my shelves and I like heating them up to where the kiln wash sizzles (but not too much) when it goes on.
If you have not figured out how to make your own long lasting and wipe off the bottom of the glass kiln wash then I suggest you do so.
It does not matter if it 'sticks' to the glass when you pick it up if it the 'stick' is momentary.
Ed Cantarella
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Ed Cantarella »

Kevin Midgley wrote:It does not matter if it 'sticks' to the glass when you pick it up if it the 'stick' is momentary.
And when it is not momentary, it matters greatly. I'd rather spend a little time and money on better materials and/or technique than jerking my arms back and forth doing avoidable coldwork. :lol:
:idea: I may have higher standards than some on what constitutes "smooth as glass" when my items come out of a kiln.
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Kevin Midgley
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Kevin Midgley »

If you have good kiln wash it will not ever stick in a normal firing.
Ed Cantarella
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Ed Cantarella »

Not ever. :-k
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Terry Gallentine
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Terry Gallentine »

I am going through ordering new shelves myself and have run into some supply issues. Laguna Clay is the main domestic supplier of cordierite shelves and their production cycle seems to dictate supply. I was looking for 16"x 16" x 5/8" cordierite and they are out until they run a new batch. They don't know when that will be. I am thinking about going with corelite shelves instead. They are more expensive but they are flatter and have less defects.
As far as applying kiln wash to warm shelves, I do it all the time. I use a spray gun and the water carrier steams off without so rapid a cooling as to cause thermal shock to the shelf. I started doing this with stainless steel molds a long time ago. I use a kiln wash that I make myself from 60% alumina hydrate and 40% calcined kaolin.
Ed Cantarella
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Ed Cantarella »

Terry Gallentine wrote:I am going through ordering new shelves myself and have run into some supply issues. Laguna Clay is the main domestic supplier of cordierite shelves and their production cycle seems to dictate supply. I was looking for 16"x 16" x 5/8" cordierite and they are out until they run a new batch. They don't know when that will be. I am thinking about going with corelite shelves instead. They are more expensive but they are flatter and have less defects.
As far as applying kiln wash to warm shelves, I do it all the time. I use a spray gun and the water carrier steams off without so rapid a cooling as to cause thermal shock to the shelf. I started doing this with stainless steel molds a long time ago. I use a kiln wash that I make myself from 60% alumina hydrate and 40% calcined kaolin.
Thanks Terry. I haven't been spraying wash, I've felt like I could brush it smoother. But yeah, the smaller spray particles should be a lot less of a shock than wet applied with a brush. I do hot application on all my stainless stuff and that is definitely the way to go.

Honestly, this thread was mainly a rant about the condition of the shelves I received. But all suggestions on who is selling nicer ones is appreciated. Paragon sells a pretty decent grade in their furniture set when you buy a kiln.

Seems that the manufacturers and suppliers are using different mixes of the cordierite and mullite. Laguna is selling Thorley shelves, it's kind of buried, but it is there on their site. BlueFire molds is making cordierite/mullite shelves but they look a little grainy - small Internet picture. . . I may try one - I think my lesson learned is to avoid any that are straight clay economy grade.

Ah, this seemed like some fairly forthcoming information https://www.dogwoodceramics.com/product ... helves.htm

?Are you lifting the shelves out before spraying?
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Terry Gallentine
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Terry Gallentine »

Yes. I run the kiln up to around 500 degrees fairly quickly (that means the shelf is not quite at 500 degrees due to lag time in temp absorption) then I take out the shelf and place it on wood blocks to spray it. I spray it until the water doesn't steam away and then reheat it again if there is not enough wash on the shelf. I mix the wash thin enough that it sprays on smoothly.
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Kevin Midgley »

Canadian money on this site. Might defray shipping costs a little.
http://www.greenbarn.com/PDFs/G_KILNS%2 ... 023_27.pdf
Ed Cantarella
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Ed Cantarella »

Kevin Midgley wrote:Canadian money on this site. Might defray shipping costs a little.
http://www.greenbarn.com/PDFs/G_KILNS%2 ... 023_27.pdf
Good prices but few of their shelves are sized for glass kilns.
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Kevin Midgley
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Re: Terrible luck ordering shelves

Post by Kevin Midgley »

You should have built your kilns to fit the shelves....
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