Mica and Kylr-Fire (anyone tried it) - WarmGlass.com

Mica and Kylr-Fire (anyone tried it)

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Tyler Frisby
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Mica and Kylr-Fire (anyone tried it)

Postby Tyler Frisby » Thu Mar 04, 2004 9:08 am

I've been playing with micas for a while now. My only complaint about the wondering lipstick sparlies turned glass stuff is:

Problem- After cutting stencil out and spraying the Mica on ther glass, when I peel my stenci off, (usually is peices cut with exacto to further avoid the problem) the dried Mica on top of my stencil rolls off into my and blurs my nice clean Egde or ever worst flakes on top of my nice perfect ever layered design element.

Question-

1. Does Kylr-Fire make the micas stick to glass and stencil, so when I remove stencil I wont have the rolling off and flaking ?

2. Is there any other meduim i might try with the Mica to hopefully Solve this ? (Elmers really Dilluted)

Thanks so much, I'm just getting really frustrated with havent cut out a really complicated stencil to work on then just have my peeling extend my Prep time by havent to use a Q-tip or an eraser to clean all my edges up. I know it says to use Kylr-Fire in the warm glass book but am wondering if this is the advantage. If not, i might as well just keep using Alcohol ! Thanks for readin

Tony Smith
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Re: Mica and Kylr-Fire (anyone tried it)

Postby Tony Smith » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:51 am

Tajai wrote:1. Does Kylr-Fire make the micas stick to glass and stencil, so when I remove stencil I wont have the rolling off and flaking ?


Klyr-Fire will act the same. This is a problem that I had with the two-tone maglesses that I made this year. I removed what I could, but for critical pieces, I fire one color, sandblast then apply the second color.

Tony
The tightrope between being strange and being creative is too narrow to walk without occasionally landing on both sides..." Scott Berkun

dan001
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Postby dan001 » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:12 am

I am not sure what you mean by once peel the stencil the mica rolls off.

I just finished testing some Gold Mica sprayed on float with very small delicate details to test if I could keep my clean hedge. and if I would mess up my design when I use very small details being sprayed with the Air brush I have to admit that I applied 9 very thick coat. Once I remove my stencil I had to be carefull but I kept all my clean edge and no mess.

I however used some A-14 from Thomson not the Klyr Fire


Dan

charlie
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Postby charlie » Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:01 pm

you're doing it the hard way, especially if you want to use multiple colors. tony's way is the easy way.

spray micas
full fuse
mask and cut
sandblast off the mica

if you want multiple colors, mask and spray, then fuse again. repeat until all color layers are done, then

fire polish

Robyn Alexander
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Location: Berkeley CA

Postby Robyn Alexander » Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:46 am

Any suggestions for a cheap airbrush to use with mica? I'd rather not invest in the highly recommended Aztec and compressor unless I'm certain it's something I'll use more often.

When mixing mica and klyr-fire, is there a particular consistency I should look for?


While I'm here....
Can the mica-klyrfire mix be silkscreened? If so, do I look for a different consistency?


Thanks in advance for any help....

Robyn

Michael McNerney
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Postby Michael McNerney » Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:26 am

Robyn,
I have had no success trying to screen micas and klyr fire. The mixture is to thin and spreads badly even using a high mesh screen. You need to find a mixing medium with a much thicker consistency that isnt toxic when you fire it.

Michael

Bert Weiss
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Postby Bert Weiss » Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:01 pm

Michael McNerney wrote:Robyn,
I have had no success trying to screen micas and klyr fire. The mixture is to thin and spreads badly even using a high mesh screen. You need to find a mixing medium with a much thicker consistency that isnt toxic when you fire it.

Michael


Water miscable mediums will work as will squeegee oil. Squeegee oil stinks, but it is a better medium for screening. The water friendly mediums tend to get air bubbles when screened several times.
Bert

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chuck666
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Postby chuck666 » Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:58 pm

Tajai,

When I spray micas, I use 50/50 ratio (approximately) and 1/4 teaspoon of Pearlex mica. Here in AZ, that mixture dries very fast and is ready to fire very quickly.

I, too, don't apply any stencil or cut any pattern until I've fired the mica into the glass. Then I stencil or cut resist and sandblast and fir polish.

Hope this helps.

Chuck of AZ

Robyn Alexander
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Location: Berkeley CA

Postby Robyn Alexander » Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:40 pm

Bert Weiss wrote:Water miscable mediums will work as will squeegee oil. Squeegee oil stinks, but it is a better medium for screening. The water friendly mediums tend to get air bubbles when screened several times.


A search of the CR Loo pdf catalog did not find squeegee. When I called Leslie Ceramics, the guy on the phone didn't know what it was either. Is it called anything else? ... and where would I be apt to find it?

Forgive my ignorance, but what other water miscable mediums would you suggest?

Thanks again....

Robyn

Bert Weiss
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Postby Bert Weiss » Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:07 pm

Robyn Alexander wrote:
Bert Weiss wrote:Water miscable mediums will work as will squeegee oil. Squeegee oil stinks, but it is a better medium for screening. The water friendly mediums tend to get air bubbles when screened several times.


A search of the CR Loo pdf catalog did not find squeegee. When I called Leslie Ceramics, the guy on the phone didn't know what it was either. Is it called anything else? ... and where would I be apt to find it?

Forgive my ignorance, but what other water miscable mediums would you suggest?

Thanks again....

Robyn


I'm not up on the best places to buy small quantities of mediums. Thompson Enamel sells Klyr fire and squeegee oil, I believe. L. Reusche sells a line of mediums, I think they have a $75 minimum order though. I buy mine from the manufacturer, Ferro they have a $100 minimum order. You could try Standard Ceramics in Pittsburgh. All of the phone numbers are likely in the archives.
Bert



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Cynthia

Postby Cynthia » Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:14 pm

Aren't squeegee oil and pine oil the same thing? Not certain...but I am thinking they are twinners.

Cathy Crain
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Postby Cathy Crain » Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:19 pm

I have had the same problem when removing the stencil and found out that if I use a clear acrylic painting medium thinned with a little water it really helped a lot. Dried fast and pretty hard and made the stencil easy to remove. Best if you do multiple thin layers instead of one thick one.

It may not be the best way, but I don't have a sand blasting set up so it has to do till then.

Cathy

dan001
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Postby dan001 » Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:07 pm

I have used A-14 from thomson with Mica and Silkcreen. It works very well but have to apply between 15 to 18 coat with drying time in between. Klyr fire is too liquid , not enough viscosity.


I tried to go down to 9 coat and my gold mica did sink in my dark background. I used a 230 mesh sysntehtic fiber since the work was very delicate and required a very small mesh.

It might work better( getting a thicker coat with a 125 to 180 mesh


Dan

Bert Weiss
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Postby Bert Weiss » Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:42 pm

Cynthia wrote:Aren't squeegee oil and pine oil the same thing? Not certain...but I am thinking they are twinners.


Squeegee oil contains pine oil and I don't know what else. Maybe you could just use pinesol LOL

Klyr fire is methyl cellulose.

Is methyl cellulose available in some other form besides Klyr Fire?

Water friendly mediums are ethylene glycol based. There is some combo of glycerin and/or alcohol, some soap, and probably some binder. Glycerin slows drying, alchohol speeds it.

Does anybody know how to buy ethylene glycol without any dye in it. It is used to winterize RV's but comes with pink stuff mixed in.
Bert



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Jack Bowman
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Postby Jack Bowman » Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:53 pm

Does anybody know how to buy ethylene glycol without any dye in it. It is used to winterize RV's but comes with pink stuff mixed in.[/quote]


http://www.alfa.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?PR ... HK+alf+ENG

Jack

Ralph
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Postby Ralph » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:44 am

Is methyl cellulose available in some other form besides Klyr Fire?


Bert
Get CMC from your pottery supply. Looks like bleached instant coffee granules. Mix with water to obtain anything from mucilage to a gel. Initially it can be troublesome to mix - swells up. There is a fancy way to do it with hot water but I forget. Just let it stand overnight, then shake vigorously. I use 25 grams CMC to 2 litres of water - roughly 1 ounce CMC to 1/2 gallon water? You can adjust the ratio for any consistency from pouring cream to heavy gel. Experiment - nothing critical here.

Makes a great silkscreen medium for both thick and thin-film printing. I sometimes use a heavy floodcoat - works fine. Easy cleanup and burns out without a trace. No fumes (or even smell) while in use or in firing, and no forgotten oil rags in the shop. I've used a lot of screen mediums. CMC's performance is good - cost must be the lowest. It's a very good spray medium as well.

Another use? You can drop the kaolin from your kilnwash. Just mix pure alumina (I use calcined but I'm sure the hydrate will work ok) into CMC, adjust the consistency and use normally. When completely dry it's a much tougher coating than kaolin wash. The toughness completely disappears in the firing - just wipe off with a wet sponge-cloth afterwards. Got to be the healthiest wash - no dust, no kaolin or other silicates.

There're quite a few other uses in my little skunk-works - wouldn't like to work without it.

R*

Bert Weiss
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Postby Bert Weiss » Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:12 am

Ralph wrote:
Is methyl cellulose available in some other form besides Klyr Fire?


Bert
Get CMC from your pottery supply.

There're quite a few other uses in my little skunk-works - wouldn't like to work without it.

R*


Thanks Ralph. The world wide team comes through again with some great info. Getting to the pottery supply is much easier than ordering Klyr fire. I will try it for spraying and for kiln wash for sure.

I wonder if it could be used in sand casting as a binder. You would have to dry the mix completely before firing and not get the glass hot enough to blow bubbles as there might be some gasses kicking around from the burnout.
Bert



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Bert Weiss
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Postby Bert Weiss » Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:15 am

Jack Bowman wrote:Does anybody know how to buy ethylene glycol without any dye in it. It is used to winterize RV's but comes with pink stuff mixed in.



http://www.alfa.com/CGI-BIN/LANSAWEB?PR ... HK+alf+ENG

Jack[/quote]

I checked out ethylene glycol at Alpha Aesar, but it seemed too expensive. Either it is diluted with cheaper stuff to make medium or their product is a purer grade or their are less expensive sources.
Bert



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Rebecca M.
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Postby Rebecca M. » Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:10 am

Bert Weiss wrote:

Does anybody know how to buy ethylene glycol without any dye in it. It is used to winterize RV's but comes with pink stuff mixed in.


This place has all sorts of chemicals. They have about 47 billion different kinds of ethylene glycol. I don't know which is which or even if one will suit what you're looking for or if they are price competitive.

http://www.sciencelab.com

Ralph
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Postby Ralph » Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:13 pm

I wonder if it could be used in sand casting as a binder. You would have to dry the mix completely before firing and not get the glass hot enough to blow bubbles as there might be some gasses kicking around from the burnout.


You're right on the money with this idea, Bert and I think it would work better than you might expect.

I've done quite a bit of work with shallow-relief casting and have now abondoned traditional plaster/silica in favor of pure calcined alumina bound with CMC.

Be very surprised if you have any burnout problems. I've worked with CMC and glass for 2 years (and in ceramics for 20 before that) and never had a burnout problem.

Another advantage in my work is the reduction in volume of mold material used. I use (or even make) alumina molds right on mullite shelves. The mullite provides support and the mold can be very thin, often less than 1/8".

By all means try CMC with sand. If you want to avoid the silica thing you can get cheap alumina in various meshes. Anywhere from #60 to #100 should provide a similar texture to fine sand. The best thing about alumina is its incredible refractoriness - so reluctant to stick to glass.

A reminder - CMC has little strength unless it is completely dry. It's weak when there is any moisture present.

R


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