breakthrough rigidizer news

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:05 pm

Sandy Jackson wrote:Thanks for the info Bert. We just finished our large kiln today and were just at last step , getting ready to apply the riidizer when I ran across this info.
We are planning to order it tomarrow.
Once it is applied can we then fire directly on the HD Board/kiln floor ? Or would I need to use a kiln wash thin fire paer , etc. ?

Hi Sandy, Long time no see. Email me pictures. You should be able to fire directly on board. You probably have to recoat the board, probably often. Let us know.

rosanna gusler · Post by **rosanna gusler** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:00 pm

ok, check my math. i am going to test some weslok d. if 20 lb powder makes 6 gal solution, then 3.66 lb powder makes i gallon, then .92 lb makes one quart. how do we know that 20 lb powder makes a 30% solution in 6 gallons? i did not get that from the website. rosanna

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:26 pm

rosanna gusler wrote:ok, check my math. i am going to test some weslok d. if 20 lb powder makes 6 gal solution, then 3.66 lb powder makes i gallon, then .92 lb makes one quart. how do we know that 20 lb powder makes a 30% solution in 6 gallons? i did not get that from the website. rosanna

Water weighs around a pint a pound so 7 pints to 3 pounds of alumina would be a 30% solution. The powder has a specific gravity of 3.55 so 3 pounds would be a bit more than a pint in volume. If that calculation is correct 3 pounds would make 1 gallon +.

Mr. Wizard

Stuart Clayman · Post by **Stuart Clayman** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:03 pm

Boy, this sounds like exact science. How close do you need to get for these measurements. How long will the product hold up in solution.. ie the shelf life. Maybe I want to use a whole 20 LB package to 6 gals of water and mix it all up at one time.. or do you add water to the 20 lbs till you get to 6 gals?

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:40 am

Stuart Clayman wrote:Boy, this sounds like exact science. How close do you need to get for these measurements. How long will the product hold up in solution.. ie the shelf life. Maybe I want to use a whole 20 LB package to 6 gals of water and mix it all up at one time.. or do you add water to the 20 lbs till you get to 6 gals?

Not rocket science just powder and water. Thicker than 30% will yield a thick solution and probably go on lumpy. Thinner is probably not a problem. I think the colloidal part means that it stays in solution. I know that freezing won't harm it like colloidal silica, as I asked about that.

I have a jar kicking around since the late 80's. I think it is still alive and usable, although I haven't looked in lately. Where I bought it, it was expensive, so this source is a cheap thrill. I used it as a kiln wash on Zircar RS 100 board.

Lauri Levanto · Post by **Lauri Levanto** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:13 am

Bert,

what didi you reallyask about freezing.
When you buy it dry, as a powder od dust, it does not freeze.
After adding the water it is different.
The water will freeze at some point, forming crystals.
Does it leave the alumina out to settle after thawing?

(Some people here distill denaturated alcohol by freezing.
The stuff is pored along a *cold* iron bar into a bucket.
Water and the water soluble denaturing agent freeze on the bar, pure alcohol runs into the bucket.)

-lauri from 60 deg noth lat.

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:09 am

lauri wrote:Bert,

what didi you reallyask about freezing.
When you buy it dry, as a powder od dust, it does not freeze.
After adding the water it is different.
The water will freeze at some point, forming crystals.
Does it leave the alumina out to settle after thawing?

(Some people here distill denaturated alcohol by freezing.
The stuff is pored along a *cold* iron bar into a bucket.
Water and the water soluble denaturing agent freeze on the bar, pure alcohol runs into the bucket.)

-lauri from 60 deg noth lat.

Lauri

My understanding is that liquid colloidal silica is ruined by being frozen, and colloidal alumina mixed with water is not. It can be reconstituted.

Stuart Clayman · Post by **Stuart Clayman** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:10 am

is there a simple formula.. fill a X size jar with Y water and the rest powder? to save from measuring.. or else I will have to go buy a scale.

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:31 am

Stuart Clayman wrote:is there a simple formula.. fill a X size jar with Y water and the rest powder? to save from measuring.. or else I will have to go buy a scale.

It's specific gravity is 3.5 so it weighs 3.5 times as much as water.

20 lb of water is 2.5 gallons or 40 cups

40/3.5 = 11.43 so 20 pounds of wesbond D would take up 11.43 cups of volume so .57 cups of wesbond would weigh 1 pound. 3 pounds of wesbond would be 1.7 cups. Add that to 3.5 quarts of water and you will have a 30% mixture. If it is too thick, add water.

I had to take algebra2 twice in high school so somebody who got it the first time should check my math. It's probably more straight forward in liters.

It requires some kind of mixing aid. Not a blender. A jiffy mixer on a drill is probably ideal or maybe a hand blender. Let us know what you find out.

Sandy Jackson · Post by **Sandy Jackson** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:27 pm

Bert,
Jeff Jackson here, I was wonderiing in this critical last step of rigidizing do you think it is necessary to coat all six sides of the kiln floor or just the top portion that is exposed? I am asuming that the walls on the bell and as much of the cieling as I can get to should be coated as well; what do you think?
We will send photos in the next couple of days.

Jeff

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:44 pm

Sandy Jackson wrote:Bert,
Jeff Jackson here, I was wonderiing in this critical last step of rigidizing do you think it is necessary to coat all six sides of the kiln floor or just the top portion that is exposed? I am asuming that the walls on the bell and as much of the cieling as I can get to should be coated as well; what do you think?
We will send photos in the next couple of days.

Jeff

I would only bother to coat the top of the firing surface. Assuming you used HD board for the interior surface, it is already fairly rigid. The alumina will help the board to not stick to glass, in my understanding. It can't hurt to do both sides. I understand that the alumina sinks in more than silica, so the hollow sound of a rigidized board wouldn't be the same.

If one wanted to coat the inside of the kiln with a coating, the stuff to use would be this thin mortar that reflects heat. It is called ITC 100 HT coating. It is spendy though. the brochure shows a guy with some 1/2" blanket in his bare hand with an aectylene torch aimed at the blanket. The balnket is coated and all the heat is reflected.

I don't actually know of anybody who has ever used this stuff, but it sure looks interesting. They say it can significantly save on energy costs.

Sandy Jackson · Post by **Sandy Jackson** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:56 pm

Well, we fired the big kiln up to 750 for about an hour and a half to burn off the bad stuff. It did smoke quite a bit.
When we looked inside this morning it has turned a black color. Jeff tried to dust it off, but it is perminant.
Is this normal ? We are going to test fire float today.

On another note, has anyone ever slumped/ kiln cast . using glue chip glass. If so what was the outcome ?

Brad Walker · Post by **Brad Walker** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:05 pm

[quote="Sandy Jackson"]Well, we fired the big kiln up to 750 for about an hour and a half to burn off the bad stuff. It did smoke quite a bit.
When we looked inside this morning it has turned a black color. Jeff tried to dust it off, but it is perminant.
Is this normal ? We are going to test fire float today.
[quote]

The black means the binders haven't totally burned out. You need to fire higher, most manufacturers recommend to 1600 or so.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:01 pm

I am fairly new to fusing and have been trying to follow this discussion but alas am totally confused. This colloidal alumina seems like interesting stuff. Can it be used in place of kiln wash?

I have to admit, I do not know what ridigizer is, but would like to find out more.
Have patience with the nubee.

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:31 pm

Margaret wrote:I am fairly new to fusing and have been trying to follow this discussion but alas am totally confused. This colloidal alumina seems like interesting stuff. Can it be used in place of kiln wash? I have to admit, I do not know what ridigizer is, but would like to find out more.
Have patience with the nubee.

The colloidal alumina is a rigidizer that is used similar to kiln wash on boards made of alumina silicate fiber. This is different from a mullite kiln shelf. The fiber boards are relatively soft and porous whereas the mullite shelf is hard and not so porous.

Sandy Jackson · Post by **Sandy Jackson** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 9:52 pm

THanks Brad, I did what you suggested and it finished burning it out . I almost have a nice white floor again.
Im excited to do some real glass work tomarrow. Yipeeee!!!!

Monica · Post by **Monica** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:22 am

Interesting that this rigidizer comes in powdered form. Most solutions with particles that are small use a polymer mycel (sp?) to help keep those little bits in solution and "unclumped". Maybe not a big deal for rigidizing shelves and fiber board...after all, we're all used to constantly stirring our kiln wash as we apply it.

Brian and Jenny Blanthorn · Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:50 am

Monica wrote:Interesting that this rigidizer comes in powdered form. Most solutions with particles that are small use a polymer mycel (sp?) to help keep those little bits in solution and "unclumped". Maybe not a big deal for rigidizing shelves and fiber board...after all, we're all used to constantly stirring our kiln wash as we apply it.

Bentonite is a suspension agent

Brian

Lauri Levanto · Post by **Lauri Levanto** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:38 pm

Bentonite is one, CMC is another.
The difference is that CMC burns out and gasses,
bentonite stays in the mix, but may stick to the glass if
used too much.

-lauri

WarmGlass.com

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