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Inspiration

This is the main board for discussing general techniques, tools, and processes for fusing, slumping, and related kiln-forming activities.

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Cynthia

Postby Cynthia » Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:29 pm

Jody Walker wrote:I'm just sittin here reading these issues and as a painter and glass artist, I am just wondering what all the hub bub is about....ultimately, once the tools and techniques are in place, the playing ground is leveled and then, the rules of composition, color and design are what will separate good work from bad and the best pieces of any type will always rise to the top. So just enjoy what you do and keep working!


Bravo. I wanted to say the same...but hadn't quite figured out how to say it quite so well. This conversation never came up with my painting cohorts either becasue it was never an issue. One of my professors was David Dornan. Most every one who learned over the years to paint from David, left school with degree in hand painting like David. Those that continued to work as professionals were showing work, that year by year began to develop and display that they had found their own sensibility...and 'David' was no longer present in their work, they made it their own. Did David care that dozens of painters every year were leaving his tutilage painting a la Dave? No. Did their work and sales of their work impact his career and success? No.

You are right Jody, It's a non-issue and if we can just let loose of our fears, we can get back to work.

Tim Swann
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Postby Tim Swann » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:14 pm

Brad Walker wrote:
charlie wrote:
Phil Brown wrote:I have asked this question too. I have a design, maybe even a vision. I draw it out and have assistants to help me (this all hypothetical). They cut out the glass, lay it up, maybe even execute the entire piece. Hmm, can I sign my name to it?? I don't think so; maybe a company name but not my name. But what about having someone build a custom metal stand of your design, though? An intereting artistic/practical question.


that's the process chihuly uses, as he doesn't (now) produce anything he designs.


In the same vein, I was amazed to visit Jon Kuhn's workshop and learn from his "production manager" that not only does Kuhn not produce things he designs, he sometimes doesn't even design things that get produced by his assistants.

But he does make sure he's around to sign the work.



Even the name they are signing was given to them by someone else! Makes a person want to sit back and wonder sometimes! Hmmmmm…..
Tim

AVLucky
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Postby AVLucky » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:40 am

Brad Walker wrote:
charlie wrote:
Phil Brown wrote:I have asked this question too. I have a design, maybe even a vision. I draw it out and have assistants to help me (this all hypothetical). They cut out the glass, lay it up, maybe even execute the entire piece. Hmm, can I sign my name to it?? I don't think so; maybe a company name but not my name. But what about having someone build a custom metal stand of your design, though? An intereting artistic/practical question.


that's the process chihuly uses, as he doesn't (now) produce anything he designs.


In the same vein, I was amazed to visit Jon Kuhn's workshop and learn from his "production manager" that not only does Kuhn not produce things he designs, he sometimes doesn't even design things that get produced by his assistants.

But he does make sure he's around to sign the work.


I have been an anonymous fabricator of work signed by someone who only put in, on average, about 10% of the finished pieces. It's a pretty discouraging way to earn a living, and I don't recommend it. What's worst, I think, is that a good portion of the intended audience of the piece probably doesn't care. PBS has been running that Chihuly special for the last couple of years, and it doesn't hide the fact that he's not the one at the glory hole. But I don't think that his work has been devalued because of it. (Kind of like the Walt Disney of the glass world?)
As for the metal stand question in Phil's post, I think that would depend on whether the stand (or equivalent component) was an integral part of the artwork, or if it existed simply as functional hardware to support the piece as inconspicuously as possible. If the former were true, I would hope that credit would be given. Then again, maybe that's just my naivete acting up. :?

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Postby PDXBarbara » Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:41 am

Andy Warhol.
BB
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Bert Weiss
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Postby Bert Weiss » Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:05 am

I have done a lot of collaborative art glass projects. Each one is different in many aspects. Usually the name that goes on it is the design artist's.

The collaboration I did with the most well known artist was with Neil Welliver. I made a stained glass window using a wood cut print as the image to be depicted. The project took me about a year to make. Each week I spoke with Neil to get his input on the aesthetic decisions I needed to make. At the end he asked me to sign it along with himself. He did not have to do that. The window now resides as a permanent installation at the Farnsworth Museum in Rockland Maine. (BTW relative to the thread about HF, all of the glass was acid etched with HF, then enameled).

Chihuly does not give his blowers as much credit and it pains many of us to know the real situation there.

Charles and Bridgette Marc made the Chagall stained glass windows.

Throughout the history of art, there have been teams of workers, and one name on the finished piece. Sometimes it pisses us off.
Bert

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starchimes (Andrea)
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Postby starchimes (Andrea) » Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:07 pm

I would like peoples opinion on this. Inspiration?

My design:

http://www.ebsqart.com/Artists/cmd_272_profile_portfolio__2_2_G.htm

Inspiration or not:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3712128115&category=4769I

I am trying not to be petty, but I wish this person would have at least named it something different than mine.

Jackie Beckman
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Postby Jackie Beckman » Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:45 pm

starchimes wrote:I would like peoples opinion on this. Inspiration?

My design:

http://www.ebsqart.com/Artists/cmd_272_profile_portfolio__2_2_G.htm

Inspiration or not:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3712128115&category=4769I

I am trying not to be petty, but I wish this person would have at least named it something different than mine.



This is exactly the sort of crap that makes me furious! I don't think you're being petty, but then again, I'm the one who started this thread. :wink: Don't worry - in the East it is considered a compliment. :lol: (sorry Lani - couldn't resist)

Jack Bowman
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Postby Jack Bowman » Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:49 pm

Too close to be a coincidence.

Jack

Jackie Beckman
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Postby Jackie Beckman » Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:51 pm

Jack Bowman wrote:Too close to be a coincidence.

Jack


And the same name even! [-( No way. And why would she add that she would like to thank her son for the idea unless she knew someone was going to be questioning that. :evil: Boy that makes me mad.

starchimes (Andrea)
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Postby starchimes (Andrea) » Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:05 pm

Thanks, this person has a reputation for copying other glass artist that sell on ebay. Most of us specialize in garden art. So it is a pretty small market (on ebay).

I see this kind of thing happen all the time, so most of the time I brush it off. This one just seemed to really get to me because it was one of my favorite pieces.

Thanks for the support. Glad to know it's not just me being paranoid. :lol:

DonMcClennen
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Postby DonMcClennen » Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:28 pm

The world is full of copycats......Get over it, move on, create something better!
"The Glassman"

Barbara Muth
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Postby Barbara Muth » Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:46 pm

Meanwhile your piece entitled "Nurturing the Fantasy" is a great example of inspiration.

Barbara
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Tim Swann
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Postby Tim Swann » Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:54 pm

starchimes (Andrea) wrote:I would like peoples opinion on this. Inspiration?

My design:

http://www.ebsqart.com/Artists/cmd_272_profile_portfolio__2_2_G.htm

Inspiration or not:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3712128115&category=4769I

I am trying not to be petty, but I wish this person would have at least named it something different than mine.


Did she copy the work? I don’t know. It is possible to have two people in different locations come up with the same design and name at the same time. I have had this happen to me with an engineer in Japan. When it does happen it all comes down to dates (who came up with it first). Keep good records!

Tim

travisraybold
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Postby travisraybold » Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:58 pm

Tim Swann wrote:Did she copy the work? I don’t know. It is possible to have two people in different locations come up with the same design and name at the same time. I have had this happen to me with an engineer in Japan. When it does happen it all comes down to dates (who came up with it first). Keep good records!

Tim


with the name exactly the same too, it's pretty clear (at least in my mind) that it's copied. that sucks, but what can ya do, i guess? nice stuff though, andrea :)

--travis

Bert Weiss
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Postby Bert Weiss » Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:56 pm

I'd be upset more about her using your name than the rest of it. The design is certainly inspired by yours but different enough so you have no grounds for copyright infringement.
Bert



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starchimes (Andrea)
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Postby starchimes (Andrea) » Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:01 pm

Thanks for the nice words about my works. I only get to do this part time, maybe someday full time. :D

The piece I did was a commission about 4 or 5 months ago.

The other person in question emailed me this morning after I posted and apologized profusely for using the same name. I thought is was rather ironic. (I did not contact her at all)

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I love it if I inspire someone with my pieces. I don't really care for copying, but I know it comes with the territory.

I lurk on here much more than I post and have learned so much from you guys. I know if I have a question, I can usually find the answer here. Mucho Gracious. The cream of the crop really is here. I see many masters when I browse through the art in the gallery. I also really like that everyone is pretty nice too even when the threads get alittle heated. So I will keep lurking and post occassionally.

Thanks,
Andrea

Amy on Salt Spring
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Postby Amy on Salt Spring » Thu Mar 18, 2004 6:43 pm

Coincidentally I was filling out a form this morning to submit two of my pieces to be considered for a show and had to sign a certification stating this "I hereby certify that the artwork entered above is not a copy, derivative or based on the work of others..."

AVLucky
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Postby AVLucky » Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:05 pm

A friend recently tipped me off to a simple and inexpensive way to prove your design is the original. When you have completed a design on paper, make a signed and dated copy, then seal it in an envelope and mail it to yourself. If the envelope is never opened, the postmark will serve as proof of the date.


The design is certainly inspired by yours but different enough so you have no grounds for copyright infringement.

That's a little stickier. I've heard that jewelry manufacturers rip eachother off all the time, and it's legal as long as one small element of the original is changed. It stinks, but I'm not sure how else a rule could be put into writing without being completely subjective.

Cynthia

Postby Cynthia » Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:16 pm

starchimes (Andrea) wrote:I would like peoples opinion on this. Inspiration?

My design:

http://www.ebsqart.com/Artists/cmd_272_profile_portfolio__2_2_G.htm

Inspiration or not:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3712128115&category=4769I

I am trying not to be petty, but I wish this person would have at least named it something different than mine.



That's not glass chimes 'a la Andrea'...that's a move for move replication and can hardly be considered flattery or even using your style as an inspiration...Pretty ballsy...but as frustrating as it is, I agree with Ontariodon.

Ontariodon Posted:

The world is full of copycats......Get over it, move on, create something better!


If you and I stood in the same spot and painted on the same sized canvas with the same sets of brushes and paint the same landscape...the paintings would be different...even if we were photo-realists. If I sit down and paint a painting of your painting making marks and strokes to replicate yours, then I've just created a piece of paste or it's a forgery. Hmmm. I agree with Jody, yet I can see where the line is getting crossed here.

In the world of decorative arts...if you make a nice set of windchimes, somebody else will start making them too. What really blows my mind is that she was even foolish/naive/thick enough to not change the title of the piece. Duh.

The only way to make something that isn't reproducable is to create something unique, like your handwriting. Everyone has a distinctive style of handwriting that develops over time and you just gotta develop that signature style that when it gets knocked off, people will recognize that for what it is.

I don't mean to sound as if it isn't a problem, it's just...what are you going to do about it? She hasn't infringed on any copyright, just stepped on it's toes. It's a shame that this kind of thing goes on.

Tim Swann
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Postby Tim Swann » Thu Mar 18, 2004 8:44 pm

travisraybold wrote:
Tim Swann wrote:Did she copy the work? I don’t know. It is possible to have two people in different locations come up with the same design and name at the same time. I have had this happen to me with an engineer in Japan. When it does happen it all comes down to dates (who came up with it first). Keep good records!

Tim


with the name exactly the same too, it's pretty clear (at least in my mind) that it's copied. that sucks, but what can ya do, i guess? nice stuff though, andrea :)

--travis


Yup! Right down to the name in my case too. I was lucky and had good records that proved I was first by 1 month.

Tim


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