Thats true of any forum category. Would be essential in a critics corner. I think a lot would find it to be tedious bullshit. I'd find it interesting bullshit and participate vigorously.Cynthia wrote: clip
Because I have found that I value a crit that contains a dialog, one on one interaction to be more fruitful. Any concepts discussed could be clarified or misunderstandings corrected, terminology defined.
clip
Critique Section
Moderators: Brad Walker, Tony Smith
It's quite a story Marty. I'll just tease you for now, and say it involves massive amounts of alcohol, and the wife of the Turkish Defense Minister on Cyprus in the '60s. I'm much more mature now.Marty wrote:Brock wrote:. .
Cpl./Pvt./Cpl. Craig
(Getting Cpl. the second time is much tougher)
_________________
I'd like to know why Cpl./Pvt? I'll buy the beer....
International Incident Boy
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .
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The Hobbyist
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Linda Reed
- Posts: 54
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- Location: Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Yeah. What he said!Jim Wolverton wrote:...
I got carried away suspecting that there are many others lurking, like I usually do, that have a similar need. They may not have the courage to post a piece for criticism but can surely learn from other critiques. I'm old enough to be unthreatened by anything anyone can say to me or about me. So I will offer as many pieces as is acceptable.
I have always been sensitive to the feelings of others and generally take serious umbrage when they are trampled. But in a Critic's Corner it should be obvious (or made clear) that the poster expects and wishes a critique with positive and negative comments and can handle it emotionally. If they cannot they should not post. They should post a pic in Photos and share it without fear of evaluation.
So far it seems that the idea isn't a really hot one judging by the lack of posts. Mine has drawn more politeness than I wanted. There have been some negatives that I expected and there have been some helpful suggestions that I will carry to the next piece. I guess that everyone is treading so lightly for fear that the critiques will become personal rather than objective.
The fear of breaking eggs has kept many a cake from being baked.
Jim
I think that a lot of inexperienced fusers are afraid to post a critique because they only know what they like, not necessarily the right words for why they like it (the negative/positive space and imagry type words)
I understand the reluctance of people who are fairly well established in the field – and who have received much artistic feedback already in their careers – to subject themselves to the ‘pubic’ critique process. And those of you that this applies to HAVE a network of friends and/or peers that can give you the higher level and trusted feedback that you ask for.
For fusers who are a little less far along that path, there may be no other place they can turn to where other people understand the techniques and inherent limitations and possibilities of working with kiln fired glass. It’s this group who could benefit from critique from both out peers and the trained artist.
I think that with the proper disclaimer/instructions on the forum, it could be O.K. for the people asking for a critique. "Please state size of piece, intended purpose, artistic intent, marketing intent, whether you are looking for artistic feedback or technical feedback, help with an specific technique, etc, etc… ". And if all went well, it could be a dialogue with responses and more critique.
How to get people to post critiques, now that's something I haven't thought of. I'm as bad about that as about asking for them I guess - I don't think my opinion is valued or educated, and I don't think my glass is at a level that begs critique. There are probably many others in the same boat. Thinking that giving an opinion that doesn't meet the 'art' opinion exposes us for the charlatans we really are
It’s not something to be tried by the weak of heart!
I understand the reluctance of people who are fairly well established in the field – and who have received much artistic feedback already in their careers – to subject themselves to the ‘pubic’ critique process . . .
Well, yeah! What exactly is involved here Linda? This doesn't require any of Jackie's day spa hydraulic equipment, one hopes. Brock
Well, yeah! What exactly is involved here Linda? This doesn't require any of Jackie's day spa hydraulic equipment, one hopes. Brock
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .
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Amy on Salt Spring
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Oh I know I should be all serious and pithy if I am writing in this thread but the "pubic" critique process sent me into gales of laughter! Probably a result of spending the day in my studio tying many, many, many little knots (don't ask). I'm so glad you made that typo Linda, it made my day. I'm kind of scared to think what the pubic critique process would be...Linda Reed wrote:I understand the reluctance of people who are fairly well established in the field – and who have received much artistic feedback already in their careers – to subject themselves to the ‘pubic’ critique process.
Amy
I think that a lot of inexperienced fusers are afraid to post a critique because they only know what they like, not necessarily the right words for why they like it (the negative/positive space and imagry type words)
[/quote]
As an inexperienced fuser I have to admit that I am impressed by much of the work I have seen here. But even with more experience I probably could not give an artistic critique since I do not understand the whole mystical art thing.
I have been watching this discussion on all the various threads and have been wondering about something. If an individual wants an artistic critique of thier work by people that know the "speak", is there not a forum somewhere that is already available? If is a good work of art it should be taken seriously from people that are working in all mediums.
[/quote]
As an inexperienced fuser I have to admit that I am impressed by much of the work I have seen here. But even with more experience I probably could not give an artistic critique since I do not understand the whole mystical art thing.
I have been watching this discussion on all the various threads and have been wondering about something. If an individual wants an artistic critique of thier work by people that know the "speak", is there not a forum somewhere that is already available? If is a good work of art it should be taken seriously from people that are working in all mediums.
Carol B
I will sit out on the public critique process, as I do not believe that photos and a narrative will do a piece being croqueted justice. I need to touch and inspect a piece closely while asking more in depth questions of the artist. For me this process is best handled in person. I am sure other can do a better job at critiques from photos than I, and I applied them for this talent.
Tim
Tim
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Linda Reed
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I dunno. A spa situation might assist the whole process....Brock wrote:This doesn't require any of Jackie's day spa hydraulic equipment, one hopes. Brock
Any time. Glad to bring some levity into it all. And it wouldn't even have helped if there was a spell check on this thing!Amy on Salt Spring wrote: Oh I know I should be all serious and pithy if I am writing in this thread but the "pubic" critique process sent me into gales of laughter! Probably a result of spending the day in my studio tying many, many, many little knots (don't ask). I'm so glad you made that typo Linda, it made my day. I'm kind of scared to think what the pubic critique process would be...
Amy
Ah well starting with a pubic critique would certainly break the ice. THEN we would all be soliciting critiques from our close friends
My husband says - oh, there's the next calendar topic... I think I'll go crawl in a hole now.
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Jackie Beckman
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shesjustalittletwisted
- Posts: 11
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- Location: Johnsburg, IL
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The other day I posted my first newbie pictures looking for input, thought and ideas....not just oh I like this.(I can get that from my Mom)..I had finally got the "oh what the hell do I have to loose" feeling and had the time to register, post etc.
Now, to be honest..If I had read this thread first I never would have posted them...not for fear of comment or rejection but because I think I have gotten the impression that these type of posts are not really(for lack of better words) what you all want to see. ..that the work is not advanced enough for this forum. This leads me to wonder if a beginning fuser does not come here where do they go? Do people really not comment on others work because they fear they will bruise an ego? Are we not all adults who had to check the box that they are over 13 in order to register.. don't those who post pictures prepare themselves for what they might read?
Personally speaking, I've been doing this this less than a year, work full time and fuse whenever I can stay up late enough to do so, than I have to clear off the kitchen counter so we can use it the next morning hopefully without glass in our cereal. I know my work is at a complete beginning level and will grow and improve with time. Right now I get a kick out of having something catch my eye and finding a way to make it out of glass.
What I am finding myself wondering is does this forum expect everyone to want to reach the same high level of difficulty of work that we see here? Its beautiful and the talent here is amazing but I am finding though this post that my goals are different. I enjoy the simplicity and fun nature of the things I do. It gives me great pleasure to have someone buy one of my lizard bowls and tell my how much fun they had using it at a party. For me, I have realized that I want to keep my work affordable for most people. (I price right...do not give it away for the sake of a sale...this only hurts the art form) This past holiday season, the people I work with gave a lot of my items as gifts to loved ones and almost everyone there can now tell someone what fused glass is and how it is created. It was a huge reward to have a coworkers young daughter tell me that she loved her necklace from her Dad and that she could not believe how hot that glass got.
So...I guess I will go back to working towards my goal of a little studio someplace warm near the ocean where I can sell my creations and the art of other friends to people who are looking for "a little something" for themselves or someone.
Do anyother beginners feel this way...or am I way out there as usual?
....slinking away back to lurking now.....
Now, to be honest..If I had read this thread first I never would have posted them...not for fear of comment or rejection but because I think I have gotten the impression that these type of posts are not really(for lack of better words) what you all want to see. ..that the work is not advanced enough for this forum. This leads me to wonder if a beginning fuser does not come here where do they go? Do people really not comment on others work because they fear they will bruise an ego? Are we not all adults who had to check the box that they are over 13 in order to register.. don't those who post pictures prepare themselves for what they might read?
Personally speaking, I've been doing this this less than a year, work full time and fuse whenever I can stay up late enough to do so, than I have to clear off the kitchen counter so we can use it the next morning hopefully without glass in our cereal. I know my work is at a complete beginning level and will grow and improve with time. Right now I get a kick out of having something catch my eye and finding a way to make it out of glass.
What I am finding myself wondering is does this forum expect everyone to want to reach the same high level of difficulty of work that we see here? Its beautiful and the talent here is amazing but I am finding though this post that my goals are different. I enjoy the simplicity and fun nature of the things I do. It gives me great pleasure to have someone buy one of my lizard bowls and tell my how much fun they had using it at a party. For me, I have realized that I want to keep my work affordable for most people. (I price right...do not give it away for the sake of a sale...this only hurts the art form) This past holiday season, the people I work with gave a lot of my items as gifts to loved ones and almost everyone there can now tell someone what fused glass is and how it is created. It was a huge reward to have a coworkers young daughter tell me that she loved her necklace from her Dad and that she could not believe how hot that glass got.
So...I guess I will go back to working towards my goal of a little studio someplace warm near the ocean where I can sell my creations and the art of other friends to people who are looking for "a little something" for themselves or someone.
Do anyother beginners feel this way...or am I way out there as usual?
....slinking away back to lurking now.....
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Cynthia
If I give a crit, it won't be because the work has achieved a particular level of accomplishment, but because I was asked and if I have the time. It isn't something you just pop off, it's got to be well constructed. Looking at the work takes time, having a conversation takes time, giving constructive criticism takes time. Sometimes I have more time than I know what to do with, others I am in over my head with work. I am sorry that you have gotten the impression that the level of the work is what we are concerned with as much as the potential for it to get better.shesjustalittletwisted wrote:The other day I posted my first newbie pictures looking for input, thought and ideas...If I had read this thread first I never would have posted them...I think I have gotten the impression that these type of posts are not really(for lack of better words) what you all want to see...that the work is not advanced enough for this forum.
Do people really not comment on others work because they fear they will bruise an ego?
Yes, that's true in my case, and I have the wounds of retaliation to validate that fear
.No. Not all of us behave like adults.Are we not all adults ?
Many of us have the fragile ego's of a child and I often can't tell who is who or how thick the skin is. Nope. Just like there are those who aren't prepared to provide a crit, there are those who aren't prepared to receive one.Don't those who post pictures prepare themselves for what they might read?
does this forum expect everyone to want to reach the same high level of difficulty of work that we see here?
No, and that is something I addressed already. Part of the dialog has to be about your intent. What is this work supposed to be about? If it's as you say, a process of making pretty things simply to float your boat and sell trinkets at the seashore, I'll tackle that crit with different concerns than if you are trying to get your work ready for shows...which shows? Galleries. Which galleries? If you are making an art statement, dealing strictly with decorative issues, trying to reinvent the wheel...the crit will be tailored to fit the work. The quality of the work and it's intent are going to determine how the crit is offered...not that it has to be of a certain calibre or category in order to get a crit. My comment(s) was/were that I wouldn't offer a public crit because I had concerns which I went to ad nauseum lengths to illustrate. None of my concerns were about the caliber of the work. I don't recall anyone else saying that either.
I think I am sounding impatient or irritable. It's late and I am tired and if I were smart, I wouldn't respond when I'm tired. But I interpret your post as being a touch put off with those of us who aren't game to offer crits, and that you somehow came up with the notion it was because we didn't have time for the little guy. This kind of misunderstanding is the very reason I don't want to offer a crit. The written word is too darn easy to misinterpret, and it's too darn hard to convey the information fairly and clearly this way as well. Simple as that.
That sounds like a lovely goal. I hope you achieve it.So...I guess I will go back to working towards my goal of a little studio someplace warm near the ocean where I can sell my creations and the art of other friends to people who are looking for "a little something" for themselves or someone.
Last edited by Cynthia on Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nickie Jordan
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- Location: Palmer, Alaska
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Bert Weiss
- Posts: 2339
- Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:06 am
- Location: Chatham NH
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Everybody in the arts starts out somewhere and progresses by one simple path, making stuff. The more you make, the more sophisticated your eye becomes and the more you tune in to your aesthetic. (assuming intelligence)
Nobody can escape this experience. No book, No Class, No Bulletin board, can give you maturity or allow you to master your experience. You have to do it for at least 7 years to gain that (if you work hard enough to get there).
The trick is to keep making stuff. This BB can help enormously with both technical advice and aesthetic advice. Use it. Make stuff! Break some glass.
Nobody can escape this experience. No book, No Class, No Bulletin board, can give you maturity or allow you to master your experience. You have to do it for at least 7 years to gain that (if you work hard enough to get there).
The trick is to keep making stuff. This BB can help enormously with both technical advice and aesthetic advice. Use it. Make stuff! Break some glass.
Bert
Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
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Kathie Karancz
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:49 pm
- Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
- Contact:
OK - here's my 2 cents worth.......
I have noticed a small amount of tension throughout the whole thread (maybe my imagination), but I think the reason is that the whole thing comes down to the old ego. I have been fusing (off and on - not a lot) for 3 years now and you will notice that I have never posted a pic cuz of the following reasons:
1. I don't know how (big one - but I know if I really wanted to post, then I would have figured it out)
2. Up until awhile ago, it was always cuz I thought I wasn't good enough so I didn't want to be "branded" with the title that I was the one that does "those really ugly bowls".
I truly appreciate it when people post there pics cuz:
1. I see things that are of such beauty that it gives me more drive to improve.
2. Get all kinds of ideas that could inspire me to do something different
3. Even if someone is new, I love to see how they progress through their personal experience with creating with glass. For example: I responded to Twisted Girl (Lisa) when she posted her pics the other day because I want her to know that she is doing really well and I love her lizard bowl. Sure Lisa may have to improve a little, but hey - after 1 year of fusing - good for her that she is taking the time to put it out there for all of us to see and be proud of what she has accomplised (by the way - I also love the pale blue bowl). It now has me thinking of making some bowls with little creatures on them. I also look forward to seeing how she progresses. (Please don't stop posting your pics Lisa)
Back to Critique Corner vs Photos section:
I think we should have both. I think I will finally have the nerve to post and it will be in the Critique Corner - still not good enough for the photo section. It all comes down to my ego: am I ready or not.
As to the "speak", why yes one day hopefully I too will be able to communicate with the "great ones", but hopefully I will not be doing it just to impress others and do it with fairness and honesty or keep my mouth shut.
Can't we just all support each other and be "white lights" - my speak.
I have noticed a small amount of tension throughout the whole thread (maybe my imagination), but I think the reason is that the whole thing comes down to the old ego. I have been fusing (off and on - not a lot) for 3 years now and you will notice that I have never posted a pic cuz of the following reasons:
1. I don't know how (big one - but I know if I really wanted to post, then I would have figured it out)
2. Up until awhile ago, it was always cuz I thought I wasn't good enough so I didn't want to be "branded" with the title that I was the one that does "those really ugly bowls".
I truly appreciate it when people post there pics cuz:
1. I see things that are of such beauty that it gives me more drive to improve.
2. Get all kinds of ideas that could inspire me to do something different
3. Even if someone is new, I love to see how they progress through their personal experience with creating with glass. For example: I responded to Twisted Girl (Lisa) when she posted her pics the other day because I want her to know that she is doing really well and I love her lizard bowl. Sure Lisa may have to improve a little, but hey - after 1 year of fusing - good for her that she is taking the time to put it out there for all of us to see and be proud of what she has accomplised (by the way - I also love the pale blue bowl). It now has me thinking of making some bowls with little creatures on them. I also look forward to seeing how she progresses. (Please don't stop posting your pics Lisa)
Back to Critique Corner vs Photos section:
I think we should have both. I think I will finally have the nerve to post and it will be in the Critique Corner - still not good enough for the photo section. It all comes down to my ego: am I ready or not.
As to the "speak", why yes one day hopefully I too will be able to communicate with the "great ones", but hopefully I will not be doing it just to impress others and do it with fairness and honesty or keep my mouth shut.
Can't we just all support each other and be "white lights" - my speak.
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shesjustalittletwisted
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:13 pm
- Location: Johnsburg, IL
- Contact:
(Back from lurking...)
Nicky...."Sorry that I may have started the onslaught at your expense, 'Twisted Girl'. - N" No sorry needed...I did what I do best....jumped right in this myself!
Kathy...yes I noticed tension also and to everyone...I did not mean to increase it with my post. (Have not figured out that quote thing so bear with me)
Cindy said
"I think I am sounding impatient or irritable. It's late and I am tired and if I were smart, I wouldn't respond when I'm tired".
You did not sound that way to me....and I probably should not have posted when I was so tired also.
"But I interpret your post as being a touch put off with those of us who aren't game to offer crits, and that you somehow came up with the notion it was because we didn't have time for the little guy."
I did not mean to come across as put off...more confused is the case...
I guess from the discription under the photo section where it says basically put it here if you want feedback....I thought that was the gig...
but from this thread I sort of felt like the beginners were not being encourage to post. I also did not catch where you posted about the intent....which is a very good point...it would help the person looking at the pieces to know what the creator was striving for. As you mention, my Seashore goal is I am sure a lot differant than a lot of peoples. Having never had any formal art training I am not striving for what someothers might be. On a day to day basis I work in a cubical that I refer to as my "padded cell". If I am lucky enough to one day "break out" and
create things that people will get pleasure out of I will feel like I have made it. I am striving for more than ring holders and votive cups(not a diss to those making these!)....more on the "man...thats a great cool, fun, serving dish" level.
Kathy...I agree with a lot of what you said about seeing people work and becoming inspired. I have seen so many things here I have never thought of before....from everyone...at all levels.
When coming to the board the photo section is where I go first....
I also enjoy checking out people who do not post pictires websites.
There is a lot of talent out there. And thank you for your comments on my bowl. The lizards are fun...go for it.
Bert...damn straight I will keep making stuff....but am trying to limit the 'breaks" to the planned ones....my 2 labs hate glass in their paws.
As a wrap, I would like to add how much I enjoy this board and will look forward to the critics corner should one appear! I will add my thoughts
and will be brave enough to post a picture or two.
Nicky...."Sorry that I may have started the onslaught at your expense, 'Twisted Girl'. - N" No sorry needed...I did what I do best....jumped right in this myself!
Kathy...yes I noticed tension also and to everyone...I did not mean to increase it with my post. (Have not figured out that quote thing so bear with me)
Cindy said
"I think I am sounding impatient or irritable. It's late and I am tired and if I were smart, I wouldn't respond when I'm tired".
You did not sound that way to me....and I probably should not have posted when I was so tired also.
"But I interpret your post as being a touch put off with those of us who aren't game to offer crits, and that you somehow came up with the notion it was because we didn't have time for the little guy."
I did not mean to come across as put off...more confused is the case...
I guess from the discription under the photo section where it says basically put it here if you want feedback....I thought that was the gig...
but from this thread I sort of felt like the beginners were not being encourage to post. I also did not catch where you posted about the intent....which is a very good point...it would help the person looking at the pieces to know what the creator was striving for. As you mention, my Seashore goal is I am sure a lot differant than a lot of peoples. Having never had any formal art training I am not striving for what someothers might be. On a day to day basis I work in a cubical that I refer to as my "padded cell". If I am lucky enough to one day "break out" and
create things that people will get pleasure out of I will feel like I have made it. I am striving for more than ring holders and votive cups(not a diss to those making these!)....more on the "man...thats a great cool, fun, serving dish" level.
Kathy...I agree with a lot of what you said about seeing people work and becoming inspired. I have seen so many things here I have never thought of before....from everyone...at all levels.
When coming to the board the photo section is where I go first....
I also enjoy checking out people who do not post pictires websites.
There is a lot of talent out there. And thank you for your comments on my bowl. The lizards are fun...go for it.
Bert...damn straight I will keep making stuff....but am trying to limit the 'breaks" to the planned ones....my 2 labs hate glass in their paws.
As a wrap, I would like to add how much I enjoy this board and will look forward to the critics corner should one appear! I will add my thoughts
and will be brave enough
to post a picture or two.-
Nikki ONeill
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:55 am
- Location: Silver Spring, MD
- Contact:
"Everybody in the arts starts out somewhere and progresses by one simple path, making stuff. The more you make, the more sophisticated your eye becomes and the more you tune in to your aesthetic. (assuming intelligence)
Nobody can escape this experience. No book, No Class, No Bulletin board, can give you maturity or allow you to master your experience. You have to do it for at least 7 years to gain that (if you work hard enough to get there).
The trick is to keep making stuff. This BB can help enormously with both technical advice and aesthetic advice. Use it. Make stuff! Break some glass." -Burt
Here, here. It's a wonderful journey.
Nikki
Nobody can escape this experience. No book, No Class, No Bulletin board, can give you maturity or allow you to master your experience. You have to do it for at least 7 years to gain that (if you work hard enough to get there).
The trick is to keep making stuff. This BB can help enormously with both technical advice and aesthetic advice. Use it. Make stuff! Break some glass." -Burt
Here, here. It's a wonderful journey.
Nikki
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Barbara Muth
- Posts: 382
- Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:10 pm
- Location: Washington DC Metropolitan Area
- Contact:
Amy I am becoming convinced that if you weren't trying to get a repetitive motion injury, you wouldn't feel whole!Amy on Salt Spring wrote: ..... Probably a result of spending the day in my studio tying many, many, many little knots (don't ask).
Well, okay, I exaggerate a little. But seriously, you do do a lot of those teeny things. And the outcome is always fabulous. Take lots of rests, I'd hate to see you lose the ability to tie all those knots and drill all those holes!barbara