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pookie wrote:: been using kerosene & transmission oil.I find it to greasy.would like to find a different medium. any suggestions would be appreciated.

Aren't you glad you asked Pookie?

Stinkiness, or rather the lack of stinkiness is my criteria for an oil...no oil is the least stinky, then there is cutting oil made for glass and is nice and not stinky, and you use so little, the expense is nominal. You could try 3-in-One or sewing machine oil....Cleaning with dish soap and water is a terrific way to clean your glass anyway, and should successfully tackle any light oil you choose.

Now there's an idea I didn't think of.... sewing machine oil. Much nicer and more efficient than those big messy bottles of lamp oil. Great idea! Thanks.

If using oil is a myth, it's one that sure works well. . .

I've been cutting dry for 20 years, so myth or not, I don't care.

Nobody with any experience is going to change their mind on this subject, because they've already decided what works best for them.

Let's just make sure we don't end up like some of the other boards, where a topic like this can be parsed endlessly. And repeatedly. Do what works for you.

Now, go make something.

Brock wrote:You can choose to ignore the advice that I give here, but it will cost you big bucks when you do.

Wooo! The voice of doom!

It's not gonna cost me a cent, I can cut glass, and I'm not hacking up big sheets.

But what the hell, scare 'm if you can. Brock

Come on Brock, I clearly state that I'm referring specifically to float glass. I also state that stained glasses can be cut dry with success. I do mean to scare anybody cuttting float glass. WOOOOOOO.

Many of the other boards would have degenerated into a lengthy argument as to which particular brand of kerosene was preferrable to any and all other brands - with many insisting that anyone dumb enough to use any brand other then their favourite kind of kerosene had the IQ of a carrot.

I gotta admit, that if you're glueing scraps of cardboard onto glass before cutting it, dry cutting would help avoid having that cardboard absorb all the oil. But, maybe if you used kerosene, it'd be easier to just light the cardboard on fire to avoid having to soak it off.

Maybe you could just leave the cardboard on the glass and let the kiln burn it off? Whatcha think? Might work. It's not THE dumbest technique suggested.

Okay, I gotta ask... and who cares if everyone on the board isn't entertained by the direction of the conversation. Why are people gluing cardboard onto the glass? You've lost me there.....

[quote="Dani"]Okay, I gotta ask... and who cares if everyone on the board isn't entertained by the direction of the conversation. Why are people gluing cardboard onto the glass? You've lost me there..... [/quot

Well gee Dani . . . I'm not gonna tell you. Brock

I spent the morning looking through my reference books for Information I found on cutting with lubricants (oil). Unfortunately, I was unable to find the information. What I do remember is the lubricant provided a small amount of surface tension to the score on the glass. The science behind it was that the lubricant did not stabilize the score itself, but rather inhibited the edge of the score from spalling. Spalling would be the small micro cracks that run parallel to the glass surface and cause the small little chips. By reducing the spalling you can minimize the flaring that takes place when the glass breaks. This sounds plausible, so I have not gone through the experimentation to prove if it is true and besides what I do works for me. Then again this could all be “Voodoo Scienceâ€

If I am ever bending elbows with a bunch of glassers, I'll know which topic not to bring up to start a fracas. Shall we have a go at religion after this. From those who are smarter and have greater resources than I: The purpose of applying a liquid to a score is to weaken the silicone oxygen bonds. Someone earlier quoted Graham Stone as saying water is an enemy of glass, and that is true. In the absence of water, glass can retain it's high tensile strength, but once it's surface has been marred through a chip or score, and moisture in the atmosphere enters, the rate of crack growth can be accelerated by a factor of a million and the energy required to break the silicone oxygen bonds is reduced by a factor of 20.
Water and ammonia work well due to their small molecular size, but other liquids can work, as long as they have the ability to donate electrons and atoms. I suspect oily liquids have become popular because they don't evaporate quickly, they lube the cutter wheels, and they don't rust the heads. I think the folks who don't use oil in their cutters, myself included, get away with it for most situations because there is enough moisture in the air to do the job. The Toyos seem to be made well enough that the lack of lubrication does not shorten their lives, at least as far as I can tell. Doing production cutting I get at least six months to a head, making the cost trivial. I'd only use oil if I worked with float on a regular basis. That's my 50 cents worth, now I have to go agitate some air molecules with my saxophone.

What's the deal with the 'dry' cutters then? MacInnes says it's the carbide wheel, and Toyo has a dry cutter out now, I don't know what kind of wheel they have. Is that just hype or is there something to it? Just wondering.

I used olive oil once when I couldn't find anything else.

Well for me, I cut lots and lots of strips. I can tell when my cutter is dry as the score's never run complete. I oil the cutter again and I get 100% success. If it works for you to run dry, go for it. It works for me to run mineral spirits.

Another fyi on this. I did a back of the envelope calculation assuming my estimates are correct (about 100 micro-inches-squared cutter surface area in contact with the glass) with about 5 pounds of pressure on a cutter the pressure at the edge of the cutting wheel itself is around 50,000 pounds/sq in. I just can't believe unlubricated that can be good for the life of the cutting wheel. I'm not saying it won't work, just that your wheel life will probably be longer if you keep it lubricated.

Phil

I cut mucho strips too, and I do them dry and with high success. That is what I love about what we do, people using different techniques and getting the same, and/or different results. Phil, as an engineer doesn't that drive you crazy.

If I ever play the lottery, which I don't, and win, which I won't, I will start the Art Glass Testing Institute. At the institute will be ranks of white coated clipboard toting PHD's vigorously pursuing the various problems that vex and inspire us, using the latest equipment, statistical modeling, and any grant that can be secured to continue the high salaries. At the top of the research list will be just this issue, followed immediately by which stickers leave the most easily removed residue. After we have all the perplexities of the art glass world figured out, it's on to world peace.

Tony,

Not really. The fact is the human factor throws in so many variables that all of this discussion is really uncontrolled speculation. What it does speak to is the high degree of adaptability that the human brain is and how we all use it to make our techniques work for us. You can make dry cutting of strips work. I can only make oiled cutting work.

On the surface the engineer in me says, "Well they must make oil cutters for a reason" but they make dry ones too. Given the absolute derth of technical information from the suppliers of this equipment all of us are left to speculation.

Phil

PS - I agree with you on the Glass Technical Center but as far as winning a Lottery is concerned......Ah....engineers simply regard gambling as a tax on people who are bad at mathematics.

The fact is the human factor throws in so many variables that all of this discussion is really uncontrolled speculation. What it does speak to is the high degree of adaptability that the human brain is and how we all use it to make our techniques work for us.

That, is the definitive statement on the variety of ways we do things. Brock

Tony Serviente wrote:If I ever play the lottery, which I don't, and win, which I won't, I will start the Art Glass Testing Institute. At the institute will be ranks of white coated clipboard toting PHD's vigorously pursuing the various problems that vex and inspire us, using the latest equipment, statistical modeling, and any grant that can be secured to continue the high salaries. At the top of the research list will be just this issue, followed immediately by which stickers leave the most easily removed residue. After we have all the perplexities of the art glass world figured out, it's on to world peace.

Your research team is having a meeting in Corning in September. See you there.

What about that grant money though...

I'm working on it Bert. Rumor has it that once they discover glass on Mars, there will be an increased interest in it's earthly counterpart, and subsequent big capital infusions from the private and public sectors, and we can all body surf that wave. At least that's what the latest intelligence tells me...

Tony Serviente wrote:If I am ever bending elbows with a bunch of glassers, I'll know which topic not to bring up to start a fracas. Shall we have a go at religion after this. From those who are smarter and have greater resources than I: The purpose of applying a liquid to a score is to weaken the silicone oxygen bonds. Someone earlier quoted Graham Stone as saying water is an enemy of glass, and that is true. In the absence of water, glass can retain it's high tensile strength, but once it's surface has been marred through a chip or score, and moisture in the atmosphere enters, the rate of crack growth can be accelerated by a factor of a million and the energy required to break the silicone oxygen bonds is reduced by a factor of 20.
Water and ammonia work well due to their small molecular size, but other liquids can work, as long as they have the ability to donate electrons and atoms. I suspect oily liquids have become popular because they don't evaporate quickly, they lube the cutter wheels, and they don't rust the heads. I think the folks who don't use oil in their cutters, myself included, get away with it for most situations because there is enough moisture in the air to do the job. The Toyos seem to be made well enough that the lack of lubrication does not shorten their lives, at least as far as I can tell. Doing production cutting I get at least six months to a head, making the cost trivial. I'd only use oil if I worked with float on a regular basis. That's my 50 cents worth, now I have to go agitate some air molecules with my saxophone.

We've gotten more than 50c worth out of you, Tony, as usual. Thanks for your considered opinion again. And I reiterate for the newbies who are confused about this.... a little oil on your cutter will prolong the it's life in most cases and will help you achieve a clean break especially on curved cuts. I don't really think this falls into the category of myth/truth. Of course, I'm pretty clear on the temperature issue, too..... LOL. It would be fun to have a true scientific myth-smashing department, wouldn't it? You're in charge.

Tony Serviente wrote:I'm working on it Bert. Rumor has it that once they discover glass on Mars, there will be an increased interest in it's earthly counterpart, and subsequent big capital infusions from the private and public sectors, and we can all body surf that wave. At least that's what the latest intelligence tells me...

Tony, I hope you don't get your intelligenc from the same place as shrub.

Brock

. . . And I reiterate for the newbies who are confused about this.... a little oil on your cutter will prolong the it's life in most cases and will help you achieve a clean break especially on curved cuts. I don't really think this falls into the category of myth/truth.

I totally disagree, and have decades of experience to back it up.

Why don't we leave it as:

Use a lubricant if you want to . . .

Don't use a lubricant, if you don't want to . . .

My dry cutter lasted 11 or 12 years.

Brock

I normally use auto transmission fluid only because I have it, it works and washes off easily but one recent project demanded that I don't wash the glass after cutting it. An internet search revealed that glass manufacturers have the same need and there are a number of evaporating residue free cutting oils available such as GC100E available from GlassChem. As America is a world away I got to thinking of alternatives. I had in my cupboard a bottle of Gum Turpentine left over from my oil painting days and do you know, it was perfect. It evaporates quickly leaving sufficient time to break the score and leaves absolutely no residue since I think it is highly refined for oil painting. I have fused the glass I've used it on without problems.