Stained Glass Painting INfo

This is the main board for discussing general techniques, tools, and processes for fusing, slumping, and related kiln-forming activities.

Moderators: Brad Walker, Tony Smith

Kristina
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:53 pm

Stained Glass Painting INfo

Post by Kristina »

I was told your site offered info on stained glass painting. I cannot find any BB's that list it.

I have the book by Albinas Elksus on Painting On Glass, but have some general questions now that I am actually trying to do it.

Can you recommend a location to get answers?

Thank you.
Don Burt
Posts: 573
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:45 pm
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Contact:

Post by Don Burt »

Kristina, this is a good site to post glass painting questions. You can refer to the Elskus book in your questions, as the glass painters here are familiar with it.
Dani
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:17 pm
Contact:

Post by Dani »

Have your searched the archives here for "glass painting" or "Reusche" or similar terms? There should be tons of discussion... also other paint brands.
Bert Weiss
Posts: 2339
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:06 am
Location: Chatham NH
Contact:

Re: Stained Glass Painting INfo

Post by Bert Weiss »

Kristina wrote:I was told your site offered info on stained glass painting. I cannot find any BB's that list it.

I have the book by Albinas Elksus on Painting On Glass, but have some general questions now that I am actually trying to do it.

Can you recommend a location to get answers?

Thank you.
There are lots of glass painters hanging out here. The Elskus book is a great resource. Albin is a gem.

Dick Millard teaches traditional glass painting once a year in August at his studio in Antrim NH. Dick writes often for Art Glass Info magazine. artglass.info.com I teach nontraditional glass painting from time to time. No classes scheduled at present.
Bert

Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
Kristina
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:53 pm

Post by Kristina »

Thank you for the responses. It is very encouraging. I did multiple searches for painting & stained glass painting & reusche, but mostly found Frit painting and general topics, & not specific counsel. I have 3 questions below if any would be so kind as to counsel me.

We have migrated to the lovely, but isolated rural South, so there is no access to Stained Glass instruction except by book or web.

My desire is to do the traditional style of painted window in the Jacoby & Myers or Munich tradition. Tall order, but it is my hearts desire so I am seeking help to begin properly. I have the art background but no training in the specifics of Stained Glass painting techniques.


These are a few questions I have:

1. I am having trouble with streaking in matting. It seems my paint (dry paint mixed with water & Gum Arabic) is drying even as I lay it on with the Applicator Brush.

Should I be laying it on thick (1/8" +) and spreading it with the Blender? Any counsel?


2. When creating long or sweeping folds of fabric after line work is fired, do you wax up the matted pieces to an upright Easel or lay flat on a Light Table? What approach do you prefer?


3. If you use the block wax type product for sticking pieces to the easel glass, will the pieces hold on the easel during the scrubbing? Also, what product(s) do you recommend for this purpose?

Thank you again, Kristina
Bert Weiss
Posts: 2339
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:06 am
Location: Chatham NH
Contact:

Post by Bert Weiss »

Kristina wrote:Thank you for the responses. It is very encouraging. I did multiple searches for painting & stained glass painting & reusche, but mostly found Frit painting and general topics, & not specific counsel. I have 3 questions below if any would be so kind as to counsel me.

We have migrated to the lovely, but isolated rural South, so there is no access to Stained Glass instruction except by book or web.

My desire is to do the traditional style of painted window in the Jacoby & Myers or Munich tradition. Tall order, but it is my hearts desire so I am seeking help to begin properly. I have the art background but no training in the specifics of Stained Glass painting techniques.


These are a few questions I have:

1. I am having trouble with streaking in matting. It seems my paint (dry paint mixed with water & Gum Arabic) is drying even as I lay it on with the Applicator Brush.

Should I be laying it on thick (1/8" +) and spreading it with the Blender? Any counsel?

2. When creating long or sweeping folds of fabric after line work is fired, do you wax up the matted pieces to an upright Easel or lay flat on a Light Table? What approach do you prefer?


3. If you use the block wax type product for sticking pieces to the easel glass, will the pieces hold on the easel during the scrubbing? Also, what product(s) do you recommend for this purpose?

Thank you again, Kristina
I have found that the thickness of the paint mix is very important. If it is too watery it doesn't go on well. First you apply the paint and then you blend it. If you want an even matt you go lightly in several directions. To shade, you push the paint from one side to the other. I usually prefer a stippled matt as that yields an evenly stippled matt. If you don't like the stipple, you can blend it back again.

How large are you working? the paint shouldn't dry so fast. In my personal work, I paint on very large sheets of glass (up to 40" x 84"). For this work, I use a slow drying water miscable medium, Ferro #1544. It takes about 2 or 3 months to dry, so I always fire the paint wet.

I like to paint horizontal on a light table. I am not a vertical easel guy. You can make wax with bees wax and venice turpentine if I remember it right. I believe that somebody has posted here about some good waxes. There is some stuff called museum wax that is used on the west coast to protect Chihuly blown glass from earth quakes by sticking it down to a pedestal. I think that stuff works well for a vertical easel as well.

A difficult but fast and effective technique to learn is the Joep Nicholas technique that Albin describes in the book. Water/gum arabic Matt first, then trace over the tooth of the matt with a vinegar trace. Scrub away matt. Add more matting with lavendar oil and.or alcohol matt. Fire once.

Learning how much gum to add is critical. He describes it in the book. A thin pile of dry enamel with the gum sprinkled on top like lightly fallen snow. Too little gum and it is too delicate. Too much gum and it is too hard and has a stronger tendency to blister.
Bert

Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
Dani
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:17 pm
Contact:

Post by Dani »

Kristina wrote:Thank you for the responses. It is very encouraging. I did multiple searches for painting & stained glass painting & reusche, but mostly found Frit painting and general topics, & not specific counsel. I have 3 questions below if any would be so kind as to counsel me.

We have migrated to the lovely, but isolated rural South, so there is no access to Stained Glass instruction except by book or web.

My desire is to do the traditional style of painted window in the Jacoby & Myers or Munich tradition. Tall order, but it is my hearts desire so I am seeking help to begin properly. I have the art background but no training in the specifics of Stained Glass painting techniques.


These are a few questions I have:

1. I am having trouble with streaking in matting. It seems my paint (dry paint mixed with water & Gum Arabic) is drying even as I lay it on with the Applicator Brush.

Should I be laying it on thick (1/8" +) and spreading it with the Blender? Any counsel?


2. When creating long or sweeping folds of fabric after line work is fired, do you wax up the matted pieces to an upright Easel or lay flat on a Light Table? What approach do you prefer?


3. If you use the block wax type product for sticking pieces to the easel glass, will the pieces hold on the easel during the scrubbing? Also, what product(s) do you recommend for this purpose?

Thank you again, Kristina
Are you using a badger blender to smooth the paint after applying it? Quickly smooth out the paint in several directions while it's still wet... also, be sure you're only using enough gum arabic to give the paint enough tooth to adhere to the glass.... more and it creates all kinds of problems. I also have a very good formula for a beeswax/rosin mix that holds the glass to the easel extremely well. Finally, I have a multi-part article I wrote a few years ago and I will try to dig up copies to send you. PM me an email and snail address and we'll connect directly. As an aside, the Reusches work very well in fusing, too... this is something Elskus doesn't address in his book.
Dani
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:17 pm
Contact:

Post by Dani »

Also, if you go into the old archive section above and type in "Reusche" as a keyword, you'll get a gazillion results.... okay, maybe just a hundred but there is quite a bit of discussion. Happy reading.
Don Burt
Posts: 573
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:45 pm
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Contact:

Post by Don Burt »

Kristina wrote: clip
My desire is to do the traditional style of painted window in the Jacoby & Myers or Munich tradition.
clip
You are one sick puppy. Me too. You belong in Antrim NH at Dick Millard's class.

One thing to add to Bert and Dani's info: When I was shown how to badger a matte around properly, I was surprised at how firmly you have to press-down the first couple strokes to 'bulldoze' the matte, as Maestro Millard would say. Then its surprising how quickly and dramatically you have to lighten each alternating-direction stroke and with a couple strokes you're applying only 'angel's breath' strokes.
Then you let it dry completely
then you check out a real Mayer Munich matte
then you buy an airbrush.

Seriously though, you ought to get up to Antrim if you can, not just for the technique, but for the historical grounding.
Kristina
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:53 pm

Post by Kristina »

I so much appreciate the replys. I have absorbed them & will be applying tomorrow what I read tonight!

Concerning Antrim, NH & Dick Millard's classes - is there a website or contact address I can persue for the info on it?

It would be this side of heaven to find such a teacher in the flesh, with class time!
Don Burt
Posts: 573
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:45 pm
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Contact:

Post by Don Burt »

Kristina wrote:I so much appreciate the replys. I have absorbed them & will be applying tomorrow what I read tonight!

Concerning Antrim, NH & Dick Millard's classes - is there a website or contact address I can persue for the info on it?

It would be this side of heaven to find such a teacher in the flesh, with class time!
Antrim School 2004 Painting Workshops
Call 603-588-2378
Millard Studios
160 Concord Street
Antrim, NH

Painting I - April 12-17
Painting II - April 19-24 (prereq of Painting I)
Painting II - August 16-21

email: kearmill@mettelecom.com

Looks like too short of notice. Call him up and whine at him.
Kristina
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:53 pm

Post by Kristina »

A sense of humor is a priceless thing. I perceive that you possess this asset of great value! Thank you for the data. I sure will contact him.

Also, I did not answer the questions asked in my excitement over getting the replys!

I am using the best Badger Blender I could buy - from Ed Hoys, the one recommended by Albinas.

I have been working up color samples of all the enamels & stains I bought (about 20) on 5" x 5" DS glass squares. One half of the square matted, the other line, stipple, etc. for reference.

I am thankful to hear about the heavier pressure on the Blender in the beginning, with light touch at the finish. I will pay attention to that.

QUESTIONS:
Can I clean & then blow-dry my badger blender (on low heat) after use so that I can rapidly use it again?

Does it matter what the 1" Applicator Brush is made of?
Bert Weiss
Posts: 2339
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:06 am
Location: Chatham NH
Contact:

Post by Bert Weiss »

I clean my badger blender with cold water and dishsoap if necessary. Then I spin it between my hands and the water flies out of it. A couple of slaps on my wrist back and forth and it is ready to use, nice and dry. I would not use a hair dryer on it for fear it would loosen the glue that holds the bristles in. That is the reason for cold water. A blender cared for properly will outlast your lifetime.

I have an applicator brush of choice which is not in the book. It is a Windsor Newton 2" varnish brush made with badger hair. This is a great brush and not too expensive. It is often difficult to find. I have bought some at Pearl Paint in NYC. I think they mail order at good prices. If I had to choose 3 brushes to paint with it would be my 2" applicator, a nice long bristle sign painters brush for tracery, and my 4" badger blender.

An interesting thing I encountered was reading Reyntiens stained glass how to book, which is another of the great books. He mentions using bristle brushes, which are not used by Elskus. Basically I discovered that you can use just about any brush you are comfortable with, sponges etc. If it gets paint on glass it might be effective.
Bert

Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
Dani
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:17 pm
Contact:

Post by Dani »

Don Burt wrote:
Kristina wrote: clip
My desire is to do the traditional style of painted window in the Jacoby & Myers or Munich tradition.
clip
You are one sick puppy. Me too. You belong in Antrim NH at Dick Millard's class.

One thing to add to Bert and Dani's info: When I was shown how to badger a matte around properly, I was surprised at how firmly you have to press-down the first couple strokes to 'bulldoze' the matte, as Maestro Millard would say. Then its surprising how quickly and dramatically you have to lighten each alternating-direction stroke and with a couple strokes you're applying only 'angel's breath' strokes.
Then you let it dry completely
then you check out a real Mayer Munich matte
then you buy an airbrush.

Seriously though, you ought to get up to Antrim if you can, not just for the technique, but for the historical grounding.
And then there's our technique.... LOL. Quite thin wash applied with a mop, badger blend in 2-3 directions quickly and lightly, then do a light pouncing movement over the entire surface as the paint is beginning to dry. This pokes little pin size holes into the paint and disguises any less than perfect strokes. Let dry completely, then sticklight to your heart's content. After some practice, do your tracery right over the matte. In the beginning, trace first, fire, then matte and fire. Remember, the thin matte is better when you're starting out as you can always apply another layer and fire again. Too thick the first time and yuck. Time to start over....
Kristina
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:53 pm

Post by Kristina »

I am so thankful to find you guys and be able to come for counsel when I hit the wall!

We have a small studio & have been shooting church windows (Munich & also Jacoby) around North & South Carolina for the past 2 years.

We agreed to do a little church's windows for the agony of jumping right in on the fully painted windows, so I have edited a variety of the window photos I want to use for the art. We have them on CD's & slides now.

If any of you are interested I can post a few for drooling or inspiration purposes.

Is there a published collection of their windows from US churches? It would be great to have them as additional references.
Dani
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:17 pm
Contact:

Post by Dani »

I mentioned this maybe on another thread? Go to the link above at Whitehouse Books and poke around their website.... they have the best collection of new and used glass books to be found and Julia will be happy to help you with any question you have. If you can get a copy of Stained Glass by Lawrence Lee et al, it'll be a boon for about any price if you're interested in liturgical and historical works.
Kristina
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:53 pm

QUESTIONS ON LINE WORK STYLES

Post by Kristina »

Thank you for the applicator brush & blender cleaning info. I used a badger applicator brush today along with the info given above and had MUCH better results.

Thank you all so much!

I also appreciate the referal to Whitehouse Books! I will go there.

I have a few questions if any care to give me your applications:

1. The Munich windows I have seen have a pen & ink line work that defines their face work & details, while the Jacoby windows have a much softer, more natural line work, almost like soft stippling for lines. Tiffany does that kind of face work as well.

Do any of you use a small stipple brush to do your line work in the soft shaping?

What techinques do you use?


2. When you have fired your line work on, do you apply your matting behind or over the line work?


3. Do you always grind your paint before applying with the glass muller? If so, how long/heavily? I see some grit after matting when I have mixed using a spatula. Should I always grind my powered paints with the glass muller?

4. What mat mix gives the smoothest outcome (oil or water)?


Thanks again,
(Signed) your Trainee
Dani
Posts: 493
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:17 pm
Contact:

Post by Dani »

The muller is used to grind the paint, however, that's not necessary with the Reusches as they are already ground very finely. The best technique when first starting to paint is to do all your tracery first, fire, then matting with the high-fire paints. Also, if you plan to use silverstain, you should have a complete set of brushes including badger blender for just the silverstains. You'll find that line quality is determined by the application instrument.... and thus beguns your journey searching for the perfect brushes for the effect you want! Every artist will have their favorites. Woe to the one who messes with my special scrubber (which is nothing more than a small oil bristle brush gooped up with paint and worn down to the ferrule). :wink:
Kristina
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 7:53 pm

GRIT IN MATTING

Post by Kristina »

Do you have an idea what would account for the grit I can see in some of my matting coats?

I have heard that one must keep their brushes from dust as that will also put grit in the paint. Do you find this true?

Also, my new Badger Blender is shedding. Is it defective, or to be expected at first?

I love brushes, so collecting & experimenting will be a pleasant agony :)
Bert Weiss
Posts: 2339
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:06 am
Location: Chatham NH
Contact:

Re: GRIT IN MATTING

Post by Bert Weiss »

Kristina wrote:Do you have an idea what would account for the grit I can see in some of my matting coats?

I have heard that one must keep their brushes from dust as that will also put grit in the paint. Do you find this true?

Also, my new Badger Blender is shedding. Is it defective, or to be expected at first?

I love brushes, so collecting & experimenting will be a pleasant agony :)
Grit is likely due to the paints not being mixed thouroughly. I use a cake spreader from a commercial restaurant supply to mix my paint with water and gum arabic on a 12" square palette made of 1/4" glass with the edges seamed. Some people use ground glass. Nice if you have it, I don't bother. It takes 10 minutes to mix the paint enough to get the lumpies out.

Dani, I find the the Ferro Sunshine series enamels are much finer ground than many of the Reusche's. I don't have to mix the Sunsine enamels as long.

The brush shouldn't shed too much. A few hairs could be natural, but if it persists, you got a cheap or defective brush.

I stipple with numerous brushes, but mostly the badger blender. I also have an Engish Stippler. It is a very long haired brush with a flat bottom. I got it at Reusche 20 years ago.

Pen and ink is done with clove oil and enamel. It is a good technique to learn using a crow quill.

Oil and water are different in subtle ways. Not so subtle is that oil mediums stink and water doesn't. The 2 mediums don't mix so just today I painted with both in order to not mess up the layer I had already painted and not fired.

Brushes that you have to make are scrubs. Get some stenciling brushes the bristle flat bottomed kind of various sizes. cut and burn the bristles with a candle until you have a tapered mountain top shape, fairly short. These are used to clean up, remove, and dry brush dried enamel before firing. A big part of traditional painting is the removal of paint to bring back the light. I have also used the rubber "brushes" as scubs.

If you make up techniques, your work will take on a personal look.
Bert

Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
Post Reply