Technique Ownership - A Question of Ethics

This is the main board for discussing general techniques, tools, and processes for fusing, slumping, and related kiln-forming activities.

Moderators: Brad Walker, Tony Smith

Barbara Muth
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:10 pm
Location: Washington DC Metropolitan Area
Contact:

Post by Barbara Muth »

Tony, you made my response to Jim's statement easy. Ditto. My big issue with a pre-programmed kiln is that schedules differ when you change glass types and thicknesses. Slumping through a small hole takes a lot longer than through a big hole, etc etc etc. There is some misleading information if a kiln is being sold with the idea that you can push a button and fuse.
Barbara
Check out the glass manufacturer's recommended firing schedules...
LATEST GLASS
Amy Schleif-Mohr
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:18 pm
Location: Milwaukee

Re: What does it matter?

Post by Amy Schleif-Mohr »

Jim Wolverton wrote:What does it matter if a bunch of hobbyists, like me, are content to make one sheet bowls and drop vases that may even be poorly annealed. It won't reduce the sales volume at the next art show/fair. But it might amuse them and delight the recipients.

.
I have been reading this thread and have wanted to respond but someone else said what I was going to say so I didn't, until I read this part of Jim's last post.

I started to get mad but then thought that would help anything. Jim there isn't anything wrong about being a hobbiest. Do your best and that's all you can do, but let me say something about the above quote.

Single sheet glass pieces have their place in the relm, but single sheet glass pieces that are priced at $400 for a 20" platter don't. This is my opinion. Believe it or not there are many many people who don't know squat about glass or kiln forming and all they've seen is a PBS special on this Chihuly guy. So they go out and see this single sheet piece for $400 and buy it because they don't know better. The gallery that is allowing this to go on should know better but really the artist should know better. Anyway this affects me and every other kiln-formed artist or hobbiest that is selling thier work because in my case, for instance, I make sculptures that are only 8" tall and retail for almost $400, so the buyer is going to look at my small piece and say why should I buy that small thing when I can get this 20" plate for the same price. This is a problem.

I just wanted to explain to you that I think there is a place for single sheet work and if you enjoy doing that kind of work great! But please keep in mind that it does affect me and everyone else.

Amy

PS I didn't mean to offend anyone, I'm just passionate about this particular subject and am learning loads from reading this thread.
Tony Smith
Posts: 1037
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:59 pm
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Contact:

Post by Tony Smith »

Lani McGregor wrote: In Skutt's defense, they didn't write the "Dog programmer" ad, Spectrum did. And again, Skutt conceived the whole idea of "push a button and slump a dish" in consultation with Gil Reynolds (Gil, want to defend the concept?) and (I think) Spectrum. We (at BE) argued vehemently against it, but they'd already gone so far in their product development (before they asked our opinion) that they didn't want to go back.

I appreciate your private email saying that you finally understand my plea at WGW for not "dumbing down" kilnformed glass. (I'm puzzled as to why you took this part of the dialog into a private email)

You asked: how do we stop it?

Bullseye tries to counteract it by offering high quality classes with honest technical information - not marketing hype. But how does the beginner distinguish the difference? If someone has that answer, I'd love to hear.

Lani
Lani,

I really would like to keep this thread free from taunts and accusations. I don't know what Gil Reynolds' role in the ad copy or the development of the System 96/Skutt preprogrammed kiln was, but it should be sufficient for the community to know that Spectrum is marketing this kiln for the beginner with a simple menu-driven controller that allows the user to select slump, tack-fuse and full fuse and three different firing speeds slow, medium and fast. The title of the ad copy contained a catch phrase "The GlassMaster Controller (or Now My Dog Can Fire My Kiln....)" http://www.system96.com/temppages/skutt.html It's important to note that this ad copy was produced many months before the kiln started distribution and doesn't include the kiln or controller they are actually distributing.. The current ad copy doesn't contain that phrase and describes the kiln that they are actually distributing. http://www.system96.com/Pages/HotStartP ... tMain.html

While the goal of creating a kiln controller that simplifies the programming is admirable, it is an unrealistic goal due to the variabilities in glass thickness, color, number of layers, complexity of design, etc (as Barbara mentioned) which all affect the temperatures and times required for the different operations. In the controller's current manifestation, the only way to adjust the temperature is to wait for that part of the firing cycle, and either "add time" or "add temperature". That makes it little better than an infinite switch if you have to hover over the kiln during the various firing cycles. Add a 4-segment, fully programmable option within the same controller, and you improve its usefulness for the beginner as well as the advanced fuser.

Next: I didn't post the comment that I made to you in a "private" email because I wasn't ready to head the thread in that direction, but since you made private into public, I think it's an important area to address.

A little background material about the "dumbing down" comment for those who may be new to the WarmGlass Board... last October there was a forum (discussion) at the WarmGlass conference in Portland where the topic was The Future of KilnFormed Glass. I did not attend the session, but it created quite a "stir" and was a topic of conversation, in-depth discussion, and minor battles for many weeks. The message that some people (mostly novices) received from the forum was that Bullseye wasn't interested in supporting the hobbiest fuser, but was interested in promoting the elite artist. At some point in the discussion, it was made clear that Bullseye wanted to stem the "dumbing down" of fusing. Taken by themselves and out of context, these two statements led to hurt feelings and confusion among some novice fusers. Again, this was the impression that some people who attended the forum took away with them. To provide the counterpoint, many of the more experienced glass artists in the audience said that they did not get that message at all and was restated a few days later by Lani in a post on the board. Rather than interpreting the message third hand, I will quote Lani:
Lani McGregor wrote:I NEVER meant to offend beginners. I believe passionately that beginners to this medium are owed the best quality introduction, education and support that we - the commercial sector of this community - can offer.

When I said -dumbing down - I was referring specifically to the commercial sector. There is so much more money to be made at the hobby level of any art or craft than at the upper levels. But without the latter, the former has nothing to aspire to and once the craft is learned, less chance to be appreciated by the public, or taken seriously by other arts professionals.

My remarks about the -devaluation- of the medium were aimed not at the beginning user, but at the risk of over-commercialization by those of us in the manufacturing, wholesale and retail arenas.

*We* - not the beginning kilnworker - need to lead the way in re-investing in this movement. We need to take from what we earn in selling materials to support education and the promotion of this artform as a credible method that can hold its own on the highest level.
In my private email to Lani, I said:
It's clear to me now what you were referring to back in October. The preprogrammed kiln offered by Spectrum is the clearest example I've seen to date of the "dumbing down" of kiln forming. I apologize for having doubted you, but you predicted it and now it has come true.

Now that it has happened, how do we stop it?... or at least fix it so it doesn't get worse.

Tony
My concern is for the people who purchase these kilns for many $$$ who will quickly become frustrated because it's not as simple as adding glass and pressing the buttons (no Jim, I'm not trying to save souls). This was the "dumbing down" that I referred to, not the stupid dog comment.

If they changed the marketing so that the kilns were offered as part of a class, it becomes more tolerable, but still less than optimal since the controller is preprogrammed. Set up a hotline so people can get questions answered about why their glass isn't slumping, and it gets even better. But don't sell a kiln like that to a novice (who doesn't know any better) without providing them with the support they need to become successful... and I think that is where this thread is heading.

How do we insure that people who try fusing become successful and not discouraged? It is NOT a simple artform where you can paint between the lines using the paints that match the numbers. How do we maintain a high caliber of teaching without it becoming political and biased by one manufacturer, technique or method? It's clear that individual glass artists have their own preferences in materials... If the goal is to "certify" teachers, then is it unreasonable to think that someone who works in float glass should have access to the same teacher training classes as someone who works with Bullseye glass? Or that someone who uses many types of glass: Bullseye, Uroboros, Spectrum, Kugler, Fremont, float and others should be excluded because she isn't exclusively a BE customer?

I haven't seen any company with a greater investment in education and process development than Bullseye... but is being altruistic part of your charter? Is providing teacher education to glass artists regardless of their medium-of-choice important for the greater good?

Sorry, just more questions...

Tony
Last edited by Tony Smith on Wed Apr 23, 2003 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
The tightrope between being strange and being creative is too narrow to walk without occasionally landing on both sides..." Scott Berkun
The Hobbyist
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 7:09 pm
Location: Sun City West (NW Phoenix), AZ
Contact:

What does artistic merit have to do with sales?

Post by The Hobbyist »

Amy, I don't market what I make but I am willing to sell/trade it.

Are you saying that I should be prevented from selling a piece, single sheet or not, for such a ridiculous price because it will hurt your sales? In America that just doesn't fly. That's like telling the Ford dealer he can't have a year-end model clearance because the Chevy dealer's sales will be hurt. Price fixing has been adjudicated as illegal (not in the public's interest).

I guess this begs the question: What does artistic merit have to do with sales? Should there be a powerful committee that decides what can be sold and for how much? I think not.

The American marketplace is driven by supply/demand and by perceived value. That's what advertising is all about, convincing the buyer that a poduct is better and thus worth more than another. There are thousands of products that are sold everyday for idiotic prices. Lots of them are of extremely poor quality. I'll bet you've bought more than one, I know I have. I can't believe that glass, kiln worked or otherwise, is immune to the marketplace.

I read this board several times a day and I see the elation associated with people selling their work, first or otherwise. I have come to the conclusion that this elation is not because the artist is starving and can now afford a meal. I think rather that the sale, the higher the price the better, is a validation of the artist's work. That what was conceived and executed by the artist has also been so appreciated by someone else that they were willing to buy it. Or was the buyer duped into believing it had artistic merit by the seller/gallery?

Given this, I can then understand your sense of rejection when a buyer pays $400 for mediocrity and passes over your $400 sculpture. There are often posts here of the same sense when the juries exclude exceptional kiln worked glass from the prestigeous shows. There is no explaining taste or lack thereof.

G'pa Jim
Amy Schleif-Mohr
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:18 pm
Location: Milwaukee

Post by Amy Schleif-Mohr »

Jim,

I think we will have to agree to disagree here. I think I clearly stated that my comments were my opinion. I wasn't out to change your opinion. I just thought it was important to bring up.

What I think it all boils down to is that I hate to see people put down thier money for something that, TO ME, isn't worth it because of lack of education.

Amy
The Hobbyist
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 7:09 pm
Location: Sun City West (NW Phoenix), AZ
Contact:

My microwave..

Post by The Hobbyist »

Tony, I just looked to be sure. Our microwave oven has buttons marked, "Popcorn", "Dinner Plate", etc. These are preprogrammed and obviously can't work for every popcorn or dinner plate put in the oven. I doubt that our microwave is any different than all the others on the "dumbed down" market. It is only one example of America's love of convenience. I'm sure we could come up with a long list. Why would kiln makers be immune to this perceived improvement?

As I wrote Lani some time ago, the term "dumbing down" is pejorative even if well intended. As you have pointed out, she was aiming her remarks at the producers. But the continued use of term still serves to disparage the hobbyist. It would be helpful to find a new phrase.

Trying to control/manage the glass/kiln makers, as you both seem to be suggesting, to exclude ignorant fusers and mediocre glass products from reaching the market is in my mind impossible.

The only solution to ignorance is education. BE is in the forefront of this effort but their programs are not aimed at the people who are buying the "dumbed down" products. Putting on shows and exhibits at galleries and cultural centers is "preaching to the choir". What we need are demonstrations at the grass roots level; malls, trade centers, craft fairs, art suppliers, glass stores, etc. That's where the new fusers will pick up the information you want disseminated.

G'pa Jim
Lani McGregor
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:12 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Post by Lani McGregor »

Tony Smith wrote:

I really would like to keep this thread free from taunts and accusations.
I would too. I'm sorry if my description of the introduction of this type of equipment into our marketplace sounded like a taunt or accusation. I certainly admit to feeling passionately that it's the wrong direction... not because it's easy, but because it leads the beginner to believe that kilnforming is as simple as pushing buttons. I am seeing more and more of this lately and it upsets me. I hope that having strong opinions isn't inappropriate on this board or I should go elsewhere.

From the background you've posted on the WGW controversy it's obvious I step into this stuff more frequently than is comfortable for most. I apologize to those who are disturbed by my opinions, but Bullseye came on as the first sponsor of this board because we hoped that it would be a place where we could debate the issues. I've had a difficult time getting debate going sometimes because I'm perceived as being "accusatory". I hope that I can be forgiven my style and taken just on my substance. Anyway, Tony, thanks for all your research on and synopsis of the WGW "dumbing down" controversy.
Tony Smith wrote:
... If the goal is to "certify" teachers, then is it unreasonable to think that someone who works in float glass should have access to the same teacher training classes as someone who works with Bullseye glass? Or that someone who uses many types of glass: Bullseye, Uroboros, Spectrum, Kugler, Fremont, float and others should be excluded because she isn't exclusively a BE customer?
Yes, it is unreasonable if Bullseye bears the expense of that training. We are not a non-profit. Our only revenues for our educational efforts come out of sales. Why would we spend those revenues on someone who uses other products before we spend them on Bullseye users? We run teacher training programs at Bullseye regularly. They are run with Bullseye materials - if we taught with other materials (that we're not familiar with) we'd be as guilty as any other ill-prepared beginning teacher.
Tony Smith wrote:I haven't seen any company with a greater investment in education and process development than Bullseye... but is being altruistic part of your charter? Is providing teacher education to glass artists regardless of their medium-of-choice important for the greater good?
Of course not. Is this a facetious question? Again, we're not a non-profit. This is still a business. One that believes its customer's success results in its own success and believes that education is a way to insure that success. Is that altruism? Sheesh, no. It's a business strategy. Which doesn't mean that it's passionless or not apt to lead us into swampy territory where our beliefs may seem unbusiness-like at times ...

.... and, Tony, I know that you don't agree with much of our business strategy ... but you don't have to ... and I won't call you on being accusatory and taunting just because you feel strongly about that...

Lani
Lani McGregor
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:12 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: My microwave..

Post by Lani McGregor »

Jim Wolverton wrote:
The only solution to ignorance is education. BE is in the forefront of this effort but their programs are not aimed at the people who are buying the "dumbed down" products. Putting on shows and exhibits at galleries and cultural centers is "preaching to the choir". What we need are demonstrations at the grass roots level; malls, trade centers, craft fairs, art suppliers, glass stores, etc. That's where the new fusers will pick up the information you want disseminated.

G'pa Jim
Jim, have you been to Portland? Bullseye opened its Resource Center SPECIFICALLY so that the public (not gallery or museum artists) could see the possibilities in glass and take a BEGINNING class or a simple demo. We've taught thousands of beginners here.

We've hosted workshops for retailers and teachers at our factory so that they could go back and offer this kind of stuff on the local level. We BELIEVE in beginners .... how come I can't seem to get that across???

Lani
Bert Weiss
Posts: 2339
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:06 am
Location: Chatham NH
Contact:

Post by Bert Weiss »

Jim

When Lani refers to the "dumbing down" I believe she is referring, at the core, to the people who buy pattern books and copy them. The fact is that these people buy enough glass to keep stained glass manufacturers in business. Hooray for them. Without them there would be no compatible glass on the market. (except of course float from the same case LOL)

Some of us, myself included, are more interested in the pursuit of a higher aesthetic. My feeling is that most of the people who post on this board, yourself included, are engaged in that pursuit. I have no ill feelings towards those that are making work that I don't care for. Just don't ask me to buy it or display it in my home.

Where I draw the line, your hobby work is on my side of the "work that I appreciate:" spectrum.

PS Lani "You are the greatest" =D>
Bert

Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
Lani McGregor
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:12 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Post by Lani McGregor »

Bert Weiss wrote:Jim

PS Lani "You are the greatest" =D>
Thanks, Bert, I needed that this morning. (Now, don't tell me greatest "what") :wink:
Brock
Posts: 1519
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:32 pm
Location: Vancouver, B.C.

Post by Brock »

Lani,

I really would like to keep this thread free from taunts and accusations.

Tony

Well I agree with that! It would be tacky to post taunts and allegations, especially if they are completely false. Don't you agree Tony?

Of course, it would be even tackier to turn an ostensibly benign thread into an ad for your teaching partner, wouldn't it?

Brock
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .
Jerry Barnett
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2003 11:40 am
Location: Texas, USA

Re: It matters.

Post by Jerry Barnett »

Jim Wolverton wrote:
The American marketplace is driven by supply/demand and by perceived value. That's what advertising is all about, convincing the buyer that a poduct is better and thus worth more than another. There are thousands of products that are sold everyday for idiotic prices. Lots of them are of extremely poor quality. I'll bet you've bought more than one, I know I have. I can't believe that glass, kiln worked or otherwise, is immune to the marketplace.

G'pa Jim
Of course glass has no marketplace immunity. "Marketplace" includes glass traded for some other object or for the excitement and gratitude of another person as well as that which is bought and sold. So for hobbiest or non-hobbiest, the integrity of the marketplace matters.

It matters if the expectations of the class are not met because they got misinformation. It matters if the piece made and given with pride shatters because it was poorly annealed, and even more so if the maker was misled by an equipment claim or misinformed in a class. It matters if the members of the ornament making group take satisfaction in their charitable efforts, and more so if they are not later embarassed because they were part of that class. It matters if the plumber does not approach his glass work with the idea that anything is good enough for the flea market crowd, but gives his best effort instead.

A few years back the Portland art museum's gift shop had an 18" square of Spectrum black and clear Baroque which had been slumped over an extended height floral former. It had a price tag of $170. It matters to the integrity of the marketplace if that level of skill/talent/knowledge receives an implicit seal of museum approval to the exclusion of the works by Amy, or any number of other people. Excellence has not been a requirement for acceptance on this board, but it has been respected. I would hope for the integrity of the marketplace that it would be treated the same by the marketplace.

Selling a piece is a validation as is the thrilled receipt of a gift. The perception of which might be a higher validation belongs only to the person making the evaluation. The rest of us have no obligation to accept ownership of that viewpoint, whichever it is.

Regarding a gallery that dupes its customers into buying something, I admit to mixed emotions. On the one hand, duped customers are clearly a threat to the integrity of the marketplace. On the other hand, I'd like the name of the gallery.

Jerry
charlie
Posts: 961
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:08 pm

Post by charlie »

Phil Hoppes wrote:Excellent point Tony but I don't thing that certifying is the key here. The market will weed out bad ones. I would take this board as an example. There is enough communication here on what happens at classes as to give rapid feedback to both instructors and studios on what is good and bad about classes, both public (on the board) and private (email).
however, i think it's important that instructors also get feedback. i've only taken a few glass classes, but unlike almost every industry course i've taken, i've never been asked my opinion, either formally or informally, on the glass classes. when i've felt strongly enough about the something, i've offered opinions or critiques, but am puzzled about not being asked as a matter of course.

teachers who don't do that are either lazy, don't want to know, or aren't interested in getting better at teaching or changing their course. imho of course.
Barbara Muth
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:10 pm
Location: Washington DC Metropolitan Area
Contact:

Re: My microwave..

Post by Barbara Muth »

Jim Wolverton wrote:Tony, I just looked to be sure. Our microwave oven has buttons marked, "Popcorn", "Dinner Plate", etc. These are preprogrammed and obviously can't work for every popcorn or dinner plate put in the oven. I doubt that our microwave is any different than all the others on the "dumbed down" market. It is only one example of America's love of convenience. I'm sure we could come up with a long list. Why would kiln makers be immune to this perceived improvement?

Trying to control/manage the glass/kiln makers, as you both seem to be suggesting, to exclude ignorant fusers and mediocre glass products from reaching the market is in my mind impossible.

G'pa Jim
Jim, the way I see it, the marketing of kilns with controllers like this one, which requires babysitting and may frequently cause projects to fail is irresponsible. Consumers will be driven away from fusing. Instead of making fusing more accessible, it makes it less accessible to the consumer.

It limits what you can do. And with four hours of anneal soaks (2 hours at 1000, 2 hours at 960) for 3/8 inch thick work the manufacturer may argue that the schedule works for both Spectrum and BE glass, but it may introduce a lot of stress in the piece if some previous discussions on over anneal soaking hold true. Frankly I would soak a 13 inch 3/8 inch piece for only about 45 minutes, not 2 hours, and certainly not four hours.

It sets up an expectation that “I can push a button and voilaâ€
Barbara
Check out the glass manufacturer's recommended firing schedules...
LATEST GLASS
Brad Walker
Site Admin
Posts: 1489
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 9:33 pm
Location: North Carolina, USA
Contact:

Post by Brad Walker »

To be fair to Skutt, Barbara, the controller in question does not require the use of its automatic features, nor does it assume that all glasses or firings are the same. It is somewhat similar to a microwave with a button for "popcorn" -- in neither case do you have to use the button, you can do it other way as well.

In my view, the "now my dog can fire my kiln" ad was probably a one-off. I haven't seen it lately, and doubt very much if it's still being used. The basic premise of that particular controller and ad campaign -- that "firing schedules have always been a high hurdle on the road to successfully kilncrafting" -- is probably the real root of this discussion (not the dog!).

As I see it, one view is that firing schedules are complicated and are a barrier to new entrants to the field. The other view is that a full and rich understanding of the technical aspects of fusing is a necessary foundation to entering the field. As with most things, the truth is probably in the middle.

Similarly, the other dimension of our discussion is the old art vs. craft debate, highlighted by the use of the word "kilncrafting" in most of Spectrum's sales materials vs. "kiln-forming" in most of Bullseye's. And once again, the truth is probably in the middle -- there are those who want nothing more than to make a few small craft items and there are those who aspire to see their works in an expensive gallery. I believe that both can co-exist, though getting to a point where there's some mutual respect may take a while.
Patty Gray
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: Washington
Contact:

Post by Patty Gray »

A few thoughts of mine: Not everyone that takes a fusing class will become addicted as many of us have become and some will remain a hobbiest, and some will never do glass again. I personally feel that if a person doesn't have the desire to pursue to become a "glass artist" and just loves to fuse and slump glass for their enjoyment, nothing is wrong with this. It is wonderful if these same people become interested enough to pursue the knowledge and skills to be good at kiln work. There are also others that feel they do not have any artistic ability and with the right guidance can create beautiful work. Some people take a fusing class to have a "hobby" and find they love to work with the medium so much their "real job" gets in the way of their glass. There are quite a number of people that take a fusing class because it sounds interesting, have no desire or understanding of a firing but love the outcome of the pieces they do.

So much more to say but need to do glass......Thank you Brad for having the WGBB so we can share and learn with our glass. Patty
Lani McGregor
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:12 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Post by Lani McGregor »

Brad Walker wrote:... The other view is that a full and rich understanding of the technical aspects of fusing is a necessary foundation to entering the field.
Brad, I hope you aren't lumping Bullseye into that position. We believe that what's needed to *enter* the field is being inspired by making a successful project (in a well-taught class... and incidentally our beginning ones involve very litte technical info) or being exposed to well-designed and structurally sound work in the marketplace.

I simply don't think that over-simplifying (see I'm educable, I didn't say "dumbing down") the technical aspects- or leading anyone to believe that the material and/or equipment will do it for them - is any recipe for continued success nor of benefit to the beginner.

But I'm starting to bore myself. I feel the need to put some popcorn in my microwave.
gone

Post by gone »

Here we go again. Another good thread deteriorating into Bullseye vs Spectrum. ](*,) This sort of conversation should be in the "Business Topics" section of the board because it has NOTHING to do with glass and everything to do with business and politics.

My 2 cents,
Els
Brad Walker
Site Admin
Posts: 1489
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 9:33 pm
Location: North Carolina, USA
Contact:

Post by Brad Walker »

Lani McGregor wrote:
Brad Walker wrote:... The other view is that a full and rich understanding of the technical aspects of fusing is a necessary foundation to entering the field.
Brad, I hope you aren't lumping Bullseye into that position. We believe that what's needed to *enter* the field is being inspired by making a successful project (in a well-taught class... and incidentally our beginning ones involve very litte technical info) or being exposed to well-designed and structurally sound work in the marketplace.

I simply don't think that over-simplifying (see I'm educable, I didn't say "dumbing down") the technical aspects- or leading anyone to believe that the material and/or equipment will do it for them - is any recipe for continued success nor of benefit to the beginner.

But I'm starting to bore myself. I feel the need to put some popcorn in my microwave.
I don't think we disagree on this, Lani, but I don't think that Jim Matthews or anyone at Spectrum would disagree with what you just said, either. In fact (at the risk of putting thoughts in his head), Jim would probably argue that being inspired to make a successful project is a good thing. He would probably also argue that Spectrum doesn't over-simplify the technical aspects, but merely tries to make them more accessible to the novice.

More to the point, there is a very wide perception that Spectrum System 96 stands for craft and hobby and stained glass retailers who want to teach fusing, while Bullseye is more elitist and oriented to the serious artist rather than the occasional hobbyist. Of course both of those positions are extreme (and stated extremely), but that doesn't make them any less prevalent. So far many of the public actions of both Spectrum and Bullseye do seem (at least from here) to bear out those perceptions. (And yes, I know there are a hundred exceptions and a thousand reasons why that's not 100% true, but still the perception is very strong and isn't likely to die easy.)

Don't get me wrong -- I think that the efforts that Bullseye is making to help the field of kiln-forming grow and mature are exemplary and worthy of respect and admiration -- but I'm not willing to make the leap from there to the view that Spectrum's efforts are reprehensible. (And again, I'm not saying that this is your view, only that there are those who perceive it to be your view.)

And time out for a little popcorn sounds like a very good idea. (Els is probably right -- many of our best discussions do, regretably, turn into Bullseye vs. Spectrum....)
Lani McGregor
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:12 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Post by Lani McGregor »

Brad Walker wrote: (Els is probably right -- many of our best discussions do, regretably, turn into Bullseye vs. Spectrum....)
I don't disagree. I just don't find it regrettable. If one has players in a field with different positions, is there nothing to be learned by debate?

Of course I never manage to get anyone from the other side to talk to me, so maybe what's regrettable is the sound of one mind flapping.

(But then you could take a field trip to the S96 website and see the Spectrum vs. Bullseye arguments.... minus debate)

ok, I feel the need to find another windmill. L
Post Reply