Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

This forum is for questions from newcomers to kiln-forming.

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beninfl
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Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:54 pm

Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by beninfl »

Jen Ken says kiln will be shipping in a day or so, and it only takes 1 day for delivery......... Horray! :-)

And I decided to go COE96 for glass, for now. Picked up from Slumpys:

(40) Sheets of T-Glass assorted
(1) Carolina Frit Fine Kit
(5#) Glass Odds
(1#) Glass Pebbles

And a few other things from eBay like a 1/2# of 96 Dichro that already arrived (gorgeous textured dichro on black)!

It's all coming together soon..... :)
Jodi Longobardo
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by Jodi Longobardo »

I have used Wissmach 90 clear and black for 2 years now after my local glass store owner pointed it out to me as being cheaper than Bullseye. Since I could get it locally in large sheets and not pay shipping, it represented a substantial savings for me. I have never had a problem with devit or anything else. I have also used Wissmach hammered dichroic without any problems in pieces that undergo 2 fusings. Haven't tried it yet for more fusings than that.

--jodi
Jerrwel
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by Jerrwel »

Barry Kaiser wrote:Wissmach does make a 96, and yes they do make their own glass..
I only use their 90, and I have never had a devit problem with it.

Just an observation. Probably 1/4 to 1/2 or the people I teach come from a stained glass background.

Barry
I've been using Wissmach 90 almost exclusively for about a year. Love it. There are 10 cathedrals and 4 opals. The white is beautiful but a little difficult to cut; everything else cuts beautifully. They have 2MM and 3MM in flat and patterned sheets. Had some devit in one color at high fusing temps, but have been firing with lower temps with no devit at all.

I stop at their factory 2 - 3 times a year and just recently saw new colors they had developed in 96 COE. Absolutely beautiful.

There are also a couple of tons of miscellaneous stained glass in my shop which I'm going to use in fusing too. Although you don't get to know 90 and 96 COE process temperatures of the tested glass, you can practice a lot with forming and observing how glass reacts to heat. Be aware that some colors of these glasses will change in the heat; red especially becomes a very ugly brown although I have found that Blenko red stays red at sintering or tack temperatures.

Let me suggest considering molds made by a frequent poster here. Laurie Spray New website!! Http://bonnydoonfusedglasstools.com Maker of stainless steel rings, pattern bar formers, pot melt pots, and Bottomless Molds glass: http://lauriespray.blogspot.com. The bottomless molds may take less space in a small kiln. I haven't bought any yet, but I keep looking!
Jerry
Jerrwel
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by Jerrwel »

Another topic...books...there are lots and lots of books about lots and lots of topics. To get started and get your feet on the ground I suggest, Contemporary Fused Glass http://www.warmglass.com/cfg/ by Brad Walker of Warmglass; great step-by-step 'how to' with many projects each building on the topics learned in preceeding projects. This one is heavy on in-depth understanding of glass and heat; The Kiln Companion (Firing Schedules for Glass) by Graham Stone http://www.warmglass.org/books/books/126-fsg. Don't even think of reading Stone until you've finished Walker. One of my favorites for ideas and variety is Joy of Fusing by Randy and Carole Wardell; good overview of process temperatures for various effects and purposes. This book also has a couple of examples of using a single layer of glass as the base for a project - great for using non-tested glass.

One of the best ways to distinquish your work from others' is coldworking. Get good info from Coldworking Glass without Machines by Paul Tarlow http://www.hisglassworks.com/cart/Coldw ... _p855.html. The book is listed at the HIS website; these folks know all there is to know about coldworking. Just a hint - I do most of my coldworking in my primary or secondary steps and not so much on the finished product; saves oodles of time and effort. There are many discussions of coldworking on Warmglass.com. Consider coldworking a late starting or medium level fusing activity.
Jerry
beninfl
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by beninfl »

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The North Carolina snowstorm delayed the shipment of glass, so for now, what you see is regular stained glass, COE of XYZ. Only single sheets firing, of course. Used the devit fluid by brushing it on and letting it dry. The real System 96 glass will be here Tuesday.

First square plate with textured glass came out great!

Second firing was a triangular bowl (blue) and an oval shaped dish. I didnt set it on kiln furniture, and the oval dish has a few bubbles on the bottom but is actually solid. My mistake. The blue dish slumped in one corner but not the other two. I thought I made the glass too big even though none overhung from it.

Third firing I made another plate, which cracked in half when cleaning it after pulling it from the kiln the following morning. Since it was really wispy glass, my guess it was just incompatible. And then another triangular bowl to see if I got the mold right, and what do you know, it wasnt. :)

So, that's what we've got so far. Any suggestions? :) For the kiln, it was fired in "Small Piece Slumping" fire schedule built into the kiln by Jen-Ken as the manual said if the piece is less than 3/8" thick to use that schedule. Leave it to the first piece to come out great and the rest wonky. :-)

And thanks to everyone for their participation and help so far! We *really* appreciate it!!

Ben & Vanessa
Marty
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by Marty »

I kind of like the wonky blue one.

You're not going to like this: "it was fired in "Small Piece Slumping" fire schedule built into the kiln" will not get you anywhere. You need to know what happens at different temps and why you ramp and hold for x time at y temp at all stages of the schedule. Especially with unknown glass. That cracked piece may not have been just unhappy with itself; it may have been miserable with the all-purpose schedule.
beninfl
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by beninfl »

Marty wrote:I kind of like the wonky blue one.

You're not going to like this: "it was fired in "Small Piece Slumping" fire schedule built into the kiln" will not get you anywhere. You need to know what happens at different temps and why you ramp and hold for x time at y temp at all stages of the schedule. Especially with unknown glass. That cracked piece may not have been just unhappy with itself; it may have been miserable with the all-purpose schedule.
This program heats at 300ºF/hour to 1000ºF and holds this temperature for 0 minutes.
Then heats at 500ºF/hour to 1280ºF and holds this temperature for 20 minutes.
Then heats at Full Power (fast as it can) to 950ºF and holds this temperature for 30 minutes.

That's what the defaults are in the kiln........ Keep in mind it is a Fiber kiln, not a brick based one, too! :) Jen-Ken says that the programming is conservative, and that you should be able to make it "quicker" after experimenting with what works or doesnt work. What that means I dont know. :)
Bert Weiss
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by Bert Weiss »

Your conservative program failed to conserve all of your pieces. So, you can balance your desire to save time with the need to break no pieces. Unless you can come up with an alternate reason why the broken one broke, the heatup rate was the culprit. There could be other reasons the piece experienced unevenivity, but rate is the most likely. The other reason would have to do with the way the mold interacts with the glass to somehow cause unevenivity. Or the glass could be too close to the elements for their configuration. However slowing down is still a solution to those problems.

I would probably anneal at a lower temperature like 920º. There are no exactly right or wrong ways to get the anneal done. And, chances are a simple shutoff is sufficient for a 3mm piece inside your kiln. So, it might not matter at all. Try this test. Take a piece of the broken glass and see how it feels with your glass cutter. It should cut easier than when it was part of the sheet you bought. The reason for this is that glass companies carefully calculate how fast they can anneal their glass so you can cut it. Every second extra, they spend, costs them money. When we anneal at home, we have different needs. Until you get thicker, the big deal for most people is to complete a firing cycle once a day. Consequently, we should be annealing better than them. So, if your glass feels easy to cut, you don't need to change anything. If it is brittle and difficult to break out, revisit your schedule.
Bert

Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
Jerrwel
Posts: 129
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:25 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by Jerrwel »

Bert Weiss wrote:Your conservative program failed to conserve all of your pieces. So, you can balance your desire to save time with the need to break no pieces. Unless you can come up with an alternate reason why the broken one broke, the heatup rate was the culprit. There could be other reasons the piece experienced unevenivity, but rate is the most likely. The other reason would have to do with the way the mold interacts with the glass to somehow cause unevenivity. Or the glass could be too close to the elements for their configuration. However slowing down is still a solution to those problems.
Wow, Bert, you are so generous.

I am thinking the discussion of 'unevenivity'' is key here in that the glass probably has various heating and cooling rates for the various components; as with tested glass, might not different colors heat/cool/expand/contract at various rates? Slowing down in general is probably the best advice. Assuming that the fiber kiln allows the glass to cool faster, might not a more controlled cooling especially be in order to below 750F? There was a discussion on the board recently about 750F being the limit of thermal shock; I do not know if it adds value in my brick kilns, but I actually control the cooling to 300F although that is as much to measure time for my programs.

On page 33 of his book, Graham Stone writes about thermal mass and uneven heating. He notes that thinner glass actually requires more control than thicker glass due to the uneven nature ie lower volume of the glass being heated or cooled. The manufacturer's notes probably refer to 6MM of glass and not 3MM of glass in regard to the 'conservative' nature of their preset programs.

Jerry
Jerry
Jerrwel
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by Jerrwel »

Using 'Auto' schedules versus creating your own schedules in the 'pro' programs of your kiln controller may seem a little daunting at first especially since process schedules and the related purpose and issues may be unfamiliar. Graham Stone's book, Firing Schedules for Glass, is my source for my 'pro' schedules.

There are a set number of stages within the 'pro' programs and there may be a time limit that the program can run; my 3-key controller has a maximum run of 24 hours and I think the program may make adjustments. So be careful if your schedule looks like it will run >24 hours and use two separate schedules instead. A long hold on the final stage of the first program will allow you to stop that program and start another where the first ended. Just don't hold at your process (top) temperature! There may also be a feature where you can combine two programs but the time limit may still apply.

You may see schedules that have several holds at various temperatures; these holds eat up the stages in your programs and may be compensated for to some degree my going slower (Brad Walker's advice not mine although I do concur). Adjusting schedules in a 3-key controller is a royal pain. Rather than create my 'pro' schedules by process type, I created them by their conservative nature. I only adjust the process (top) temperature and related hold time when required. So, using Stone's book which does not use a lot of holds I created schedules for 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and 3/4 inches. Note that these schedules also continue well below the thermal shock temperature zone on cooling and also include a run time estimate. Have fun using Brad Walkers book http://www.warmglass.org/books to get familiar with firing schedules and making his projects; then look at Stone's book for deciding what your own projects' firing needs are and how to select/build your own schedules.
Jerry
RachelM
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Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:26 pm

Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by RachelM »

Marty wrote..."BTW it's devitrifying with a 'v'."

Yeah.... I knew that.... stupid spell check and auto correct! Lol!

Better to make the mistake here than at my day job (finance). When I wrote about depreciation, it took it as defacating....no bueno on my PowerPoint presentation! :shock: :? :shock: :? :shock: :?

Rachel
Imaglassydiva@aol.com
Joe Wokovich
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by Joe Wokovich »

Brock wrote:Slumped bottles are the suncatchers of fusing, only way less interesting.
Brock wrote:Anything is more fun than a collapsed wine bottle . . .
The best part of slumping the wine bottles is emptying them with a bunch of friends
“If you tell me, I will forget.
If you show me, I will remember.
If you let me do it, I will understand."

And then tomorrow I can start all over again
beninfl
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:54 pm

Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by beninfl »

Bert Weiss wrote:I would probably anneal at a lower temperature like 920º. There are no exactly right or wrong ways to get the anneal done. And, chances are a simple shutoff is sufficient for a 3mm piece inside your kiln. So, it might not matter at all. Try this test. Take a piece of the broken glass and see how it feels with your glass cutter. It should cut easier than when it was part of the sheet you bought. The reason for this is that glass companies carefully calculate how fast they can anneal their glass so you can cut it. Every second extra, they spend, costs them money. When we anneal at home, we have different needs. Until you get thicker, the big deal for most people is to complete a firing cycle once a day. Consequently, we should be annealing better than them. So, if your glass feels easy to cut, you don't need to change anything. If it is brittle and difficult to break out, revisit your schedule.
Thanks Bert, I scored and snapped the broken plate a few times and it felt just like regular glass. Didnt feel any different in any way.





So, COE 96 glass is here. Bunch of pictures of our "progress". :-)

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That's the first batch of pendants, and the next batch that we just put in the kiln right now, except the second batch has pendants, earrings, and a coffee coaster. And a few of the first batches pendants are in there again to get their shape a little better.

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12" round circle, covered in frit, and covered in clear odds. I'm pretty happy with it.

Thanks everyone!
Bert Weiss
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by Bert Weiss »

Ben

No need to solve problems you don't have, then.
Bert

Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
beninfl
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by beninfl »

Bert Weiss wrote:Ben

No need to solve problems you don't have, then.
Hi Bert,

I cant figure out if your message was meant to push me to try and solve the problem harder, poke fun at me, or to postulate that the idea of the stained glass random sheet cracking wasnt really fixable. If I said something that sounded off or sounded like I wasnt trying to heed your advice, I apologize, I never meant for anything to sound like that at all. I was only trying to report back that the plate scores and snaps like regular stained glass. Again, apologies if something came off wrong. On the plate cracking, I cant really see myself investing much time into that piece, as now with the real System 96 glass in the shop we're able to learn from simpler things like layering pendants and plates. So far the results from using real System 96 glass has been quite nice from a beginner standpoint. I do greatly value your, and everyones, thoughts and suggestions as we progress in this fascinating world of warm glass. We're always warm and fuzzy with hugs and cupcakes, never try to discount others or ignore at all, so sorry again if thats what it sounded like!

Inventory-wise we now have 100 sheets of System 96 glass, 1# of dichro, 10#'s of clear odds, and 5#'s of color odds to play with. With the 15/6 kiln that should last us a long time...... I cant wait to see what things look like in the next few weeks and few months.

B & V
Bert Weiss
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by Bert Weiss »

beninfl wrote:
Bert Weiss wrote:Ben

No need to solve problems you don't have, then.
Hi Bert,

I cant figure out if your message was meant to push me to try and solve the problem harder, poke fun at me, or to postulate that the idea of the stained glass random sheet cracking wasnt really fixable. If I said something that sounded off or sounded like I wasnt trying to heed your advice, I apologize, I never meant for anything to sound like that at all. I was only trying to report back that the plate scores and snaps like regular stained glass. Again, apologies if something came off wrong. On the plate cracking, I cant really see myself investing much time into that piece, as now with the real System 96 glass in the shop we're able to learn from simpler things like layering pendants and plates. So far the results from using real System 96 glass has been quite nice from a beginner standpoint. I do greatly value your, and everyones, thoughts and suggestions as we progress in this fascinating world of warm glass. We're always warm and fuzzy with hugs and cupcakes, never try to discount others or ignore at all, so sorry again if thats what it sounded like!

Inventory-wise we now have 100 sheets of System 96 glass, 1# of dichro, 10#'s of clear odds, and 5#'s of color odds to play with. With the 15/6 kiln that should last us a long time...... I cant wait to see what things look like in the next few weeks and few months.

B & V
Posts on a bulletin board are tough to pull out the nuances of what is being said or not said. There is no tone of voice or inflection. All I meant was, if your glass is annealing well, you don't really need to change. As to the cracked glass, I would suggest you change, as I would prefer, myself, to never lose glass to thermal shock. However that is certainly up to your discretion.

Pendants work on very different paradigms than larger works. They are easier to anneal, and are far more forgiving.

In general, you want to change when you need to solve a problem. No problems; changing could introduce new problems. The process here is to follow your muse. Get excited about what you like and do it some more. Eventually you see yourself in the work. Then you can repeat seeing yourself.
Bert

Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
beninfl
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Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:54 pm

Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by beninfl »

Bert Weiss wrote:Posts on a bulletin board are tough to pull out the nuances of what is being said or not said. There is no tone of voice or inflection. All I meant was, if your glass is annealing well, you don't really need to change. As to the cracked glass, I would suggest you change, as I would prefer, myself, to never lose glass to thermal shock. However that is certainly up to your discretion.

Pendants work on very different paradigms than larger works. They are easier to anneal, and are far more forgiving.

In general, you want to change when you need to solve a problem. No problems; changing could introduce new problems. The process here is to follow your muse. Get excited about what you like and do it some more. Eventually you see yourself in the work. Then you can repeat seeing yourself.
Thanks Bert! :-) :-)
beninfl
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by beninfl »

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Another 12" Plate. Heavy! Thanks for looking!
beninfl
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by beninfl »

Some new stuff:

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........and in the kiln now, cant wait to see how it looks:
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beninfl
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Re: Ben & Vanessa's Newcomer Questions and Endless Posts

Post by beninfl »

Here's some more finished ones, they'll be turned into plates or something, not sure yet.....

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