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Pricing / Product / Marketing Q? What Do You Do/Think?

The forum for discussion on business aspects of working with glass.

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Sara
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Postby Sara » Thu May 29, 2003 9:20 pm

Jackie Beckman wrote:On the other hand, I recently had the pleasure of purchasing several pieces from an artist I've never seen before out of New Mexico. His work is rough, boy is it rough! But there is such personality in it and the pieces are so happy! Each and every one had it's own little wit and sense of humor. They really were pleasing to me. And I'm a total glass snob, I should add; I walk through shows mentally saying, "seen it, boring, cliche, overdone, yuck, . . ." but this work stopped me

I've never believed that the value of a piece is entirely in its craftsmanship, but rather in its overall asthetic, the feeling it gives out.

I think its a good post, Cynthia, and I hope you get answers to more of your questions. It should be interesting.


Well said Jackie. While I was back in the studio I was recomposing a response that wasn't so annoyed and flippant. Admittedly I got peeved when all I read were remarks about her "not being an artist, poor quality etc. overpriced, no conscious, not registered on the board etc.. Ha! maybe I better stay in the studio and not venture out.

Often there is a loss of primitif or naivate' the more we technically proficient we become. I have a good glass friend who is very primitif, rough edges and all and she sells like crazy and for high dollar. I would love to be able to be as free flowing instead of such a tight ass, yet I can't even manage to become asymetrical.

If you were in New Mexico and didn't stop by I'd be disappointed. What show are you talking about that I missed? Or if this creative New Mexican was in Scottsdale email me off board por favor.

If we can stick to art speak this might be a good exercise. Possibly some of the respondants might put their work up for critique.

ok, I'll go back to work,

Sara

p.s. where is the dang spell check?

Geri Comstock
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Postby Geri Comstock » Thu May 29, 2003 11:01 pm

Cynthia Oliver wrote:Brad's point about kiln formed work not being well received by some because of a perception that it is low quality or poor artistry is one I am really concerned about. I agree that we have time on our side and more and more people are educated about kiln formed work and what can be achieved with it. The pricing formula is especially appreciated.



This point is one I'm very interested in. Why is there the perception among some people, gallery owners, whomever, that kiln formed work is low quality or has poor artistry? Where has that perception come from? Secondly, how do we change it?

My initial thought is that it came from the fact that there's so much badly made kiln-formed work roaming around out there. But then I thought about other media and I've seen some very badly made blown glass and jewelry selling like hotcakes, not to mention other media.

Is it because people perceive that kilnforming is really easy? Is it because we can do it in home studios? Is it because it looks like plastic (or even recycled plastic...or spray paint...LOL) to some folks?

Geri

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Postby Dani » Thu May 29, 2003 11:26 pm

I didn't find the work all that bad either..... had the same sorts of ideas that maybe the artist was pushing for ethnic or primitive or rustic contempo (whatever that is!) .... with the hand of the artist clearly evident instead of the over-polished glitz that can so easily happen with glass. I don't think she's quite "there" yet with what she's developing.... I think the price is a bit out-of-line, too. (There tends to be a little hubris in the contemporary art world with regard to pricing.) She could probably save herself a good deal of time and agony availing herself of this forum to establish a price she can get and that she can live with. No doubt, she'll figure it out eventually. I've raised my prices a little bit from the last sharing .... $15 per pound plus $50 hour labor for wholesale.... double that for retail.... ten times that if I want to keep the piece but still show it. So far, so good, I'm busy, work sells, I've managed to keep a few pieces for myself. Cynthia, good lecture on the difference between academic standard and personal opinion.... right on the money.

Deb Libby
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Re: Pricing / Product / Marketing Q? What Do You Do/Think?

Postby Deb Libby » Fri May 30, 2003 10:05 am

[quote="Brad Walker]
This is a total of $150 wholesale, or (simply doubling), $300 retail. That would suggest that a retail price of $450 is too high.

The issue of whether or not the work impacts other artists is a different one. I too have dealt with galleries that don't want to have anything to do with kiln-formed work, but have found that good quality work can win them over. This is an educational process; if the gallery owner is already so turned off by kiln-forming work they don't even want to look at your work, then we have to try somewhere else. (And probably try back later -- kiln-formed work is more acceptable today than it was five years ago, so time is on our side.)[/quote]

Brad, I would agree with you on the pricing formula with one exception. The more accepted keystone for retail markup is now 2.3 to 2.7 instead of a simple doubling. Apparently the shop/gallery owners need the extra for operational costs. Therefore, the $450 is actually more in keeping with the current markups.

I agree wholeheartedly that we have to keep educating the public because so many shop/gallery owners/buyers are turned off to kilnformed glass based on what they have seen in the past/elsewhere. I spend alot of time at my shows trying to educate the public and by year's end I'm exhausted .... is it helping, I don't know; but at least I'm trying. I've heard the term "organic" several times lately describing what I consider really poor craftsmanship and I've had to wonder what am I missing? Since I haven't had any formal (or even informal) design training, I'll leave that part of the critique to others who have .... I "design" according to what makes me feel good/happy when I look at my final piece.

A poorly constructed piece, however, (from a technical standpoint) is where I get concerned because, if it self-destructs or is so poorly crafted, it gives kilnformed glass another black eye.

Dani
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Postby Dani » Fri May 30, 2003 10:41 am

I'd also like to add something about sublety in design to Deb's comments. We live in a society that literally screams all the time in almost every arena including the arts. Art is valid if it jumps up and slaps us in the face, makes us take notice. That's more a commentary of the society we've become than the quality of the work. There is a lot of good art out there that's quiet, and has a strength that comes from another level. Most people don't notice it, including jurors and gallery owners. It's a real challenge to photograph. I've sometimes thought I might just have to resort to "donating" a piece to a gallery and letting them see if it sells... a bit risky but maybe worth it if you win over a gallery owner. It's a puzzlement.

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Re: Pricing / Product / Marketing Q? What Do You Do/Think?

Postby Brad Walker » Fri May 30, 2003 11:56 am

Deb Libby wrote:Brad, I would agree with you on the pricing formula with one exception. The more accepted keystone for retail markup is now 2.3 to 2.7 instead of a simple doubling. Apparently the shop/gallery owners need the extra for operational costs. Therefore, the $450 is actually more in keeping with the current markups.

I agree wholeheartedly that we have to keep educating the public because so many shop/gallery owners/buyers are turned off to kilnformed glass based on what they have seen in the past/elsewhere. I spend alot of time at my shows trying to educate the public and by year's end I'm exhausted .... is it helping, I don't know; but at least I'm trying. I've heard the term "organic" several times lately describing what I consider really poor craftsmanship and I've had to wonder what am I missing? Since I haven't had any formal (or even informal) design training, I'll leave that part of the critique to others who have .... I "design" according to what makes me feel good/happy when I look at my final piece.

A poorly constructed piece, however, (from a technical standpoint) is where I get concerned because, if it self-destructs or is so poorly crafted, it gives kilnformed glass another black eye.


Deb, I'd agree on the wholesale vs. retail formula -- a wholesale price of $150 can translate into retail of anywhere from $300 to $450 (and maybe even a broader range). My guess is that Ebay would be on the lower end of that range, rather than the higher -- at least if overhead and selling effort is the justification for the higher markup. In the end, of course, the markup is the province of the gallery owner -- the artist can set the wholesale, but that's about it (unless you're selling retail, of course).

As for the impact of a poorly constructed piece on the overall perception of kilnformed work, I'm not sure that an example here or there is enough to lower the market for all. There are certainly terrible watercolors out there, for example, but a high quality work will still get noticed. The key is to work to ensure that the work we create raises, rather than lowers, the overall quality of work in the field. If enough of us do that, the market perception will take care of itself.

Cynthia

Postby Cynthia » Fri May 30, 2003 5:33 pm

Geri Comstock wrote:.... Why is there the perception among some people, gallery owners, whomever, that kiln formed work is low quality or has poor artistry? Where has that perception come from? Secondly, how do we change it?

My initial thought is that it came from the fact that there's so much badly made kiln-formed work roaming around out there. But then I thought about other media and I've seen some very badly made blown glass and jewelry selling like hotcakes, not to mention other media.

Is it because people perceive that kilnforming is really easy? Is it because we can do it in home studios? Is it because it looks like plastic (or even recycled plastic...or spray paint...LOL) to some folks?

Geri


There is just as much low quality, poorly concieved 2-D work, scultpture, polymer clay, jewelry....out there at the craft markets, in gift shops et cetera...and so I don't think it's just that there was or is a lot of poorly made work in kiln formed glass...but that when it started to really emerge (at least in my market), what was available was amateurish and clumsy.

It's a relatively new process in this medium in most markets, so what came about first was the humble first efforts, and no one was impressed. Stained glass can be done in a home studio (but fetches good fair prices for those who are accomplished), as can fine art paintings or jewelry. So I am considering that its relative newness is part of the problem. I've been extrememly pleased that more and more people I encounter know (basically) what fused glass is. When I first started, heck, I didn't know what it was.

Traditional mediums being executed in traditional means have respect because they have a history and most people know what a painting is, or stained glass work or jewelry...We've got a traditional medium being presented in a new (albeit very old) way and it gets a bit confusing as to what it is...is it painted, ceramic, stone?

Glass is percieved in so many ways....fragile, too fragile to handle or wear, yet we use it as a wind screen on our cars. Cheap...you can get stencilled glass ware, blown vessels for practically nothing (these wonderful Mexican goblets I have with cobalt and green rims and stems come to mind). That it's like ceramics and can be thrown and fired enmasse...for that matter like blown wares that can be blown and annealed enmasse....Yet there is a higher percieved value on blown work than fused.

I think it might boil down to exposure and education as well as more and more kiln formed glass that is of a very high quality and more sophistocated both technically and visually.

That leads me to think that there will need to be more and more people who work in glass who learn strong technical skills as well as learn to be more visually literate. Many have good intuition when it comes to design, and they could only strengthen that posture with some attention to learning as much about composition and all that encompasses as they do annealing and firing schedules.

Pricing and the market will be determined by demand, by desirability, name recognition, artisty, quality, all or none of the above?

Wanting something easy here, but this is a complicated field.

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reflecting on art

Postby Monica » Fri May 30, 2003 5:42 pm

Cynthia brings up a lively subject !

Pricing should be set by what the artist thinks s/he needs to make, and the "market" will handle the details.

Does someone else's work reflect badly on our own ? It seems that if one's work is good, then it should stand alone. In assessing what is "good", try to remember that the "court of public opinion" favors the familiar. Artists who are truly innovative and revolutionary are generally rejected and told their work is worthless. Early landscape painters were trashed for creating an image that didn't include people !

I know this woman personally, and she does not frequent this board. Her chosen aesthetic is that all of her glass is made using only her glass cutter and kiln. It is her preference to let the material be irregular and/or chunky. She exploits the inherent "glassiness" of the material -it's erratic fractures and flow.

I would have to agree with Jackie, that I see (and walk away from) perfectly executed but less interesting work. My own work is often more controlled, and I struggle to "work loose" and be expressive.

We all have likes and dislikes, but if you feel judgemental about someone else's artwork, then it's time to look what's cookin' in your own head. Ultimately it's more satisfying if you like what you make, independent of what "others" think, as opposed to creating highly saleable product to suit someone else.

Strega

Postby Strega » Mon Jun 02, 2003 5:22 pm

[quote="Barbara Muth"](snips)..., Not one of the fused glass pieces posted has ever sold. The same pieces have been posted more than once at the same price...
Interesting...I was just thinking about checking to see how these things did...
....And I don't really want to sell my work on ebay. I have watched several sellers try to sell large fused works on ebay. They come and they go. I think eventually they learn that selling high priced fused glass (or not selling it) on ebay is just not a profitable venture...."

We have another interesting thread going on this board under "Ebay sales".
Apparently at least some of our members have had very good luck on Ebay...with some things...and are able to at least supplement their gallery sales this way. And it appears that it has in some cases helped them meet dealers....

Strega

regional differences

Postby Strega » Mon Jun 02, 2003 5:39 pm

Cynthia brings up an interesting point about possible regional differences. Here in Portland, we have Bullseye with its own gallery in a trendy district; we have several local galleries specializing in local work, including some beautiful glass and right on Broadway theres a glass gallery which is HALF warmglass. The owner says things like "this geode piece took 3 days to anneal..." and "Bullseye named this color after this artist.." So our galleries are more educated than most...and so are our customers; they won't pay high prices for the "novelty" of glass, but will for quality.
On the other hand, this is a little intimidating/discouraging for beginners like me... I am planning to put some pieces in a friend's gift shop, and worry that the simple little pieces I make will get critized by some artist passing thru the shop....

Rob Morey
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Postby Rob Morey » Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:52 pm

Strega wrote:
On the other hand, this is a little intimidating/discouraging for beginners like me... I am planning to put some pieces in a friend's gift shop, and worry that the simple little pieces I make will get criticized by some artist passing thru the shop....


You can't worry about what other artist think of your work. If it is strong technically, and you like it, there will be plenty of other people out there who will like it too. Picasso didn't like Matisse's style, many artists felt that Gaugan was amateurish and beastly, most people dislike Dechamp and many well educated people today don't appreciate Pop art even though it is over 40 years old. So worry about the quality of the piece and work, not for acceptance from everyone, but for respect. We are all artist, even though many feel that artistic talent is an isolated incident. But the fact that you are a human being means that you are an artist. Just what kind of art you do and how good you are at it is entirely up to you. What matters is how hard you work at perfecting your craft as well as how much you love doing what you do. I learned that this week. I have been scared to show my work to galleries. I feel that I have strong designs but I think some of my technical skills need polishing, (forgive the pun.) However, this week I sold two pieces and was accepted into two nice galleries here in town. What I learned was that if I focus on doing it right and then listening to my own voice as I create, the beauty of my work will be seen and those that appreciate it will want to live with my pieces as much as I do. In other words, if you like your work, someone else will too. Just make it well.

I have wanted to recommend a book to this board, but I didn't know where to post it. This seems as good a time as any. Many of you may have seen it or it is already sitting in your bookshelf. It applies to this entire thread. The book is called Art and Fear, Observations on the Perils and Reward of Artmaking By David Bayles and Ted Orland. I have read it three times and am currently reading it again. I even had the pleasure of having coffee and conversation with Ted Orland back in 94 when I was working with a sculptor in San Jose. I think that this is one of the most important books an artist can read. It may not all apply to everyone's circumstances, but most of it will apply to everyone here.

I think you should read this book and then find someone who can give you some honest criticism about your work. Then, go for it because if you don't ask, the answer is already no.

Have fun, make glass!

Rob

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Postby Dani » Tue Jun 03, 2003 12:13 am

Go for more than just honest criticism.... go for *good* and knowledgeable critique. You'll learn more. My mother is honest when she goes gaga over a piece.... she doesn't know diddly about art. :wink:

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Postby Rob Morey » Tue Jun 03, 2003 12:30 am

Good point Dani

Rob

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Postby Linda Reed » Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:42 am

I don't know. I may be wrong about this. But it seems to me that everyone's work will go through a variety of stages over time. Beginning work will be less technically perfect than work after a few years, and a few years after that it will be yet either more technically perfect or more daring (or stagnant - there are people who do not morph as they go - but most people-who-keep-at-this's work will be better or different). And some people's ugly beginning work will be more alive than their later concerned-about-the-critics technical work.

But for most of us, beginning work will be what we produce in the beginning and some of it will 'work' and some won't and we will try and sell it anyway for whatever we think the market will bear because we are deperately trying to afford more glass and more tools... I know I was worried at first about underpricing because I heard things on this Board about people who underprice their work undermining the market for everyone. And then I figured out that pricing depends on quality, and for me to sell something way cheaper than Marty or Brock or Cynthia or Ron was very appropriate and did not undermine the system, but validated quality and experience. My stuff isn't WORTH what theirs is. Yet. And then we'll hear/read things like these critiques and gasp and disconnect the web link to our work and think, but it is SO clunky / thin / trite / uneven / non-artistic / non-tehcnically perfect... whatever our own insecurity says it is. But in the end it sells or it doesn't and we find the things that we like that we have done, the things that work. We evaluate what we like in other's work and incorporate bits and pieces. Grow and change.

Me, myself... my work is amatuerish. Young. Lots of it is no good. Some of it I like, some of it other people like, some of it sells, some of the original pieces never did. My life is such that my glass is not the 1st, or even 2nd, priority in my life for the time being. That will change as finances settle, kids grow, various things sort themselves out. In the meantime, I am acquiring tools as I can, acquiring knowledge as I can, getting a pretty nice studio set up, trying new stuff too often to get really good at old stuff. Preparing for a time when the needs of others are not greater than the needs of my artistic life. I have no doubt that eventually I will make pieces that I am proud to call my own. But I'm nowhere near being comfortable with marketing my work to a higher plane of buyer or to galleries just yet. I do the local craft shows every once in a while. If I had to put my stuff up next to some other people on this board's stuff, I'd be embarrassed. But I know that I will do better over time. And I read the Board, so I get to bypass certain mistakes altogether. Way cool!

Strega - don't ever worry about what the 'artist's' say. If the market bears it, it was worth it. Not every buyer can afford the work of the 'good' artists, and maybe someday someone will be able to say, 'oh, I have an early work of Strega, you can see the beginnings of that style...' Or whatever. And a lot of buyers may ooh and ahh over beautiful work out of their price range - or wrinkle their brows at artistic work out of their appreciation range... I think that if someone buys it, then it was appropriate for the audience, and that all art works that way. I think that we (the collective kiln worker 'we') worry too much because it is a new (to most people) media and we are concerned about niche. I think it will settle over time and like all media, there will be horrid work and good work and overpriced work and underpriced work. And tasteless souls (definition varies depending on perspective) will buy what some people call junk, and gallery owners and art types will appreciate quality or what some people call art (definition varies depending on perspective), and know what constitutes quality (and not think -'oh I've seen that and didn't like that,' that's like saying, 'oh I've seen watercolors, I don't like them!').

And what I think of as cutsey country crap or boring symmetry will be what speaks to some people and the same for each different reality / stance / perspective out there.

Another overpriced 2 cents,

Linda
"Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaceable spark, in the hopeless swamps of the approximate, the not-quite, the not-yet, the not-at-all. ...The world you desired can be won. It exists, it is real, it is possible, it is yours." ~ Ayn Rand

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Postby Bert Weiss » Tue Jun 03, 2003 9:20 am

I once saw an exhibition of work by Picasso that was his private collection. There was a ceramic bowl that he painted with china paint. He broke every rule of fine china painting. It was "amateurish". However, it had no problem at all being a priceless museum piece.
Bert

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Amy on Salt Spring
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Postby Amy on Salt Spring » Tue Jun 03, 2003 11:55 am

I've read all these posts with great interest and I appreciate hearing everyone's thoughts. I don't in any way want to seem attacking so please read the following with the sincere interest in your response that is the spirit behind it.
Although I still stand by my statement that "the idea is to take your creative expression, whatever that may be, and back it up by learning your craft and executing it well", I have seen points such as Jackie's that sometimes something rough and primitive is very powerful. I have experienced that with native art but only rarely with modern art so for me this is the exception to the rule (a lot of the primitive modern art that I've seen is often still executed with skill). I find it interesting that a few of the people that defended this work here, in private said that they really thought it was quite bad--but they wanted to make a point in general about art which I understand.
Of course people start at certain points and grow, of course a crude and amateurish drawing by Picasso would still be full of power--I agree with all of that. What I want to know from those of you like Linda, Bert, Sara, Monica etc. is, do you feel then that there are absolutely no parameters or standards by which a work of art can be assessed beyond personal taste? Is all work somewhere in the range of good to great? Doesn't it make a difference how someone is putting it out there? I mean if you say, I'm just getting going and here is what I have done isn't there a completely different standard than someone who says they are putting out fine art?
We see such high quality work from people on this board, Doug, Cynthia, Jackie, Brock, Ron, and so many more--their work is not stagnant or not "free" just because their technique is excellent. Why therefore is bad technique regarded as "organic" and "free"? As I said earlier I've seen plenty of organic and free work that is highly skilled as well.
My husband worked for years in museums in Mpls/St. Paul. He worked for a long time at a very prestigious modern art museum in Mpls. The Walker Art Center. The biggest names in modern art have permanent pieces in their collection. He often came home with stories about huge artists with tons of prestige who made enormous amounts of money for things that just looked like dreck to me. Upon meeting the artist he often found that their attachment to what they were doing was only as deep as their pockets and many of them just knew how to play the game and really had done nothing to learn their craft and had little to no interest in putting a message out there beyond what would sell. These artists made their reputations and money by convincing others that they knew nothing about art if they thought their work was bad. The emperor's new clothes. Now perhaps that has made me cynical but I think collectively we have to stand up sometimes and say--a first day student could do this and yes anyone and everyone has the right to express themselves all over the place but this stuff is priced sky high and this person is calling themselves the premiere artist of his/her county or state and that's absolutely ridiculous considering the work. I think if we don't do this we get, well we get half the stuff that was chosen for the New Glass Review. Do you see what I mean? Or am I going to be trounced as a judgmental jerk? :cry:
Amy

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Postby Brock » Tue Jun 03, 2003 12:33 pm

Or am I going to be trounced as a judgmental jerk?

Not by me, you're not. My initial respponse to this work was abrupt and dogmatic. I stand by it. It is a silly affectation to take the position that you will not use power tools in your work. Guess what, a kiln is a power tool.

And, even if you had some defensible reason for that stance, you could certainly make your work more attractive, at least in my opinion, by better cutting. I find this work elementary.

Brock
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .

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Postby Geri Comstock » Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:31 pm

There's an area of discussion that hasn't really been covered here. It's my opinion that if we're making work for sale, then it is our responsibility to make work that has good craftsmanship...by that I mean it doesn't fall apart at the slightest touch, it doesn't break when being used for the purpose for which it was sold, it doesn't have sharp edges or other defects of craftsmanship which could hurt someone.

I remember doing a show some years ago, where there were people selling coasters made from glass that they'd cut and not fired. The edges were very sharp and would cut someone who didn't handle them carefully. I was quite surprised that they were taking such a risk of selling such a dangerous item. One of the people who made them came into my booth and asked me how I got smooth edges on my pieces. Apparently they didn't know about kiln-worked glass. Yikes. These folks were doing a disservice to their customers by selling them something that was clearly so dangerous, especially to an unsuspecting child.

I also remember attending a conference some years ago where a glass artist was talking about her sculptural work. Later that day, I saw some of it in a gallery. The edges of the glass were sharp! They hadn't been ground, fired or anything else. And some of them hadn't been cut well, so they had sharpies and chips. These things were selling for thousands of dollars. I was really amazed at this lack of basic craftsmanship on such an expensive piece of work.

In the many college level art classes I've taken, craftsmanship has always been discussed...it's important if you're selling your work. The profs in the classes were talking about a higher level of craftsmanship than simply getting rid of hazardous edges, but at minimum, that's a requirement, in my opinion.

If it requires grinding your edges or reworking the piece after it's been fired once, I think we owe that to our customers. Creating dangerous work doesn't help any of us in the long run.

Geri

Cynthia

Re: Pricing / Product / Marketing Q? What Do You Do/Think?

Postby Cynthia » Tue Jun 03, 2003 2:04 pm

I feel that the work, which I referenced from my original post, appreared to be poorly crafted but the design had potential. I felt that given her statement of intent in not using power tools, but just a cutting tool and a kiln was telling that her intent was to leave a rough and unpolished finished product. Whether I like that or not or feel it has some or no value is less the to the point than what she was presenting and what she was asking for the work as a minimum bid. The entire packaging, description, artists statement...including the piece intigued me...the psychology of it all. My original post was poorly worded and I chose the wrong work to use as a spring board for the discussion. So...

I've replaced those images with my own...and would like to return to the original questions....and hopefully I've cleaned up my original post to lead it in the direction of the discussion I hoped for.

Here's the original post revised.

Cynthia Oliver wrote:I have questions about retail pricing, quality, craftsmanship, artistry...In particular, questions about pricing, and marketing. How you present yourself, your intent and the final product which is the work itself and the impact all of these issues present in pricing the work for sale.

Pricing is such an enigma. Often it can seem completely arbitrary, and perhaps it is, but does overpricing or underpricing work help or hurt kiln worked glass as a whole? How does the venue determine pricing?...such as...do you charge more in Sedona than you do in Boise, the SanFrancisco Gift show over the Utah Arts Festival?

What do you think the prices for these pieces could fetch retail? and where should the pricing fall? Are we talking $50.00 or $5000.00, and why?

I want to do this to learn where your views lie on how we place a monitary value on the work. Is it only about what the market should or could bear? What do you think about how others price their pieces and how you price your own? What kinds of factors should come into play when determining our pricing?

Lots of questions and I hope that this will be a discussion about marketing, pricing, artstry and craftsmanship in a general sense (with these links being a reference point) and how we go about doing business.


New links to different work...

http://community.webshots.com/photo/327 ... 3535CJmQWp

http://community.webshots.com/photo/327 ... 3503uIgsJj

http://community.webshots.com/photo/327 ... 3452CIgWLd

This work is similar to the other work previously posted in the sense that the edges are intentionally extending beyond the expected rims (coloring outside the lines so to speak), and the imagery is non objective. My intent and focus is on creating stong design as well as craftsmanship, and I intentionally don't incorporate a crisp linear ground edge as a design element.

I am not including the retail pricing for these pieces because I want to learn what you feel the market would or could bear for this work, and to avoid any conflict about whether it's over or underpriced.

The blue bowl, Confluence, is 20" x 3" deep and the oval bowl, A la Mode, is 20" x 16" x 4" deep.

Cynthia

Postby Cynthia » Tue Jun 03, 2003 2:32 pm

Amy on Salt Spring wrote:... I find it interesting that a few of the people that defended this work here, in private said that they really thought it was quite bad--but they wanted to make a point in general about art which I understand....
... do you feel then that there are absolutely no parameters or standards by which a work of art can be assessed beyond personal taste? Is all work somewhere in the range of good to great? Doesn't it make a difference how someone is putting it out there?


I think that the work was poorly crafted and the finishing details were not attended to. I felt her design in two of the four pieces was pretty good and can back that up with a formal critique...does it need to be better? Did she stumble into the better designs? Possibly. There are parameters, and that was part of the intent of my question. But good craftsmanship doesn't equal good work, It can only be relly good if the artistry is there as well.


Why therefore is bad technique regarded as "organic" and "free"? As I said earlier I've seen plenty of organic and free work that is highly skilled as well.


I think you just make a really good point. Bad technique isn't regarded as organic and free in my book, the design sensibility can be organic and free, but to pull it off you have to have good technique, but good technique and good design don't always look crisp and polished. This work was a bad example, it had too many weaknesses that made it difficult to see the potential strengths...In using this work it presented too many ways to respond and send us off track from the original questions.


...I think collectively we have to stand up sometimes and say--a first day student could do this and yes anyone and everyone has the right to express themselves all over the place but this stuff is priced sky high and this person is calling themselves the premiere artist of his/her county or state and that's absolutely ridiculous considering the work. I think if we don't do this we get, well we get half the stuff that was chosen for the New Glass Review. Do you see what I mean? Or am I going to be trounced as a judgmental jerk? :cry:
Amy


Absolutely we have the right to make a call about the quality of the work. I won't trounce you, and I don't think you are being a jerk. I feel that the negative responses to the work could have been tempered with some constructive criticism such as, the work needs to have the edges attended to, or single thickness glass isn't going to fly, or If she had cleaned up the edges, it might look more thought out....and my hope was that there would be more discussion about pricing and how it relates to the entire process and package we provide along with our work itself.

I shouldn't have used that work as an example...That's my perspective anyway, so I posted some of my own and asked similar, but simpler questions to tackle.


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