How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

The forum for discussion on business aspects of working with glass.

Moderator: Brad Walker

Post Reply
Ann Demko
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:54 pm
Location: Owensboro, KY

How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

Post by Ann Demko »

Sorry I'm so needy. Once again I'm turning to this board because of the vast experience and knowledge of the participants and the willingness to share. What a godsend you all are. I am down to price figuring on my outdoor sculpture of 5 flowers ranging 10' to 8' in height. Glass head rondels 22" surrounded by metal "petals", stems made of steel pipe with metal vines climbing up on three of the stems. All metal will be powder coated. I know what my costs are for fabrication but where does one go from there. I am not a renound artist by any means but that doesn't make my work, or any others in the same situation, work inferior. If you charge by time, well I guess it would work out to be a million dollars. I know you all know, with your own experience, how the design process and experimentation, sleepless nights worrying whether you have lost your mind to tackle a project you have never attempted before, etc. makes a charge based on time ridiculous. Heck the model I'm building to make my presentation of the project has taken forever. I don't want to make it so expensive that my client breaks out laughing but I do want to be fair to myself and the glass art community. Is there a formula artists can use to get a ball park figure from which the could adjust to make a price they would feel comfortable with? Does actual material and fabrication price act as a base for the formula like retail? Help!
Kevin Midgley
Posts: 773
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:36 am
Location: Tofino, British Columbia, Canada

Re: How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

Post by Kevin Midgley »

First of all are you getting paid up front for your design work whether it is used/chosen or not?
Ann Demko
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:54 pm
Location: Owensboro, KY

Re: How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

Post by Ann Demko »

No, didn't think of that. See what a total clutz I am.
Ann Demko
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:54 pm
Location: Owensboro, KY

Re: How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

Post by Ann Demko »

I think I need to add that the person interested in this project is building the new convention hotel associated with a city multimillion dollar riverfront development and wants to get as much local art represented there as possible, which is fantastic because we do have some really good artists here in my little town. I really want to be part of that project, if possible, hence my Katy-bar-the-door urgency to provide a design and model. Never gave a designers fee a thought.
Bert Weiss
Posts: 2339
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:06 am
Location: Chatham NH
Contact:

Re: How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

Post by Bert Weiss »

Ann

There is no rule, rhyme, or reason about the price of sculpture or art. It is simply worth what somebody will actually pay for it. Your challenge is to make as much profit as you can, relative to the selling price. You recognize the million dollar lifetime it took to be able to make it. Back in the early or mid 1980's I saw a show of Howard Ben Tre's at Habatat in North Miami FL There were maybe a dozen human scale sculptures with marked prices around $200,000. Many of them had red dots on them. It impressed the hell out of me. These pieces cost a lot to make, but not that much...

I like to ask about what sort of budget they have and how many pieces they want to purchase. If you can fit inside their budget, you are doing well.
Bert

Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
Morganica
Posts: 1079
Joined: Mon May 19, 2003 6:19 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

Post by Morganica »

Interesting thing about consulting and commissions--experience usually commands higher prices, but folks generally don't want to pay you to get that experience on their project. Sorta like having dental students charge full price to learn on your teeth.

You do need to track the actual make and design time, and you want to cover overhead on marketing (your presentation, filling out the paperwork, etc) but I'd either cut out the learning time and false starts entirely or else steeply discount that time.

If it's a public venue they should list the budget, and if not, you can usually find it by going back through the budget. That'll give you a ballpark for what they expect to pay. Whether it's what you need to make a profit is another story.

Is profit for this particular piece your primary motive? Are you looking to break even? It sounds as if at least part of your motivation is to be included in the town art display, which might mean you accept making a smaller profit or only breaking even.
Cynthia Morgan
Marketeer, Webbist, Glassist
http://www.morganica.com/bloggery
http://www.cynthiamorgan.com

"I wrote, therefore I was." (me)
Tom Fuhrman
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:44 am
Location: eastern Tennessee
Contact:

Re: How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

Post by Tom Fuhrman »

start at a price you think is a little on the high side of what your ego thinks you shoud get for the project. If it doesn't get the job, start negotiating and adding a few changes that appears you are trying to do everything possible to obtain the job.
BTW: as others have said, i now always get some $ upfront before I do any extensive design work and put it all in a well "spelled-out" proposal with a schedule of delivery and the payments expected as the proect progresses. every project is different.
Ann Demko
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:54 pm
Location: Owensboro, KY

Re: How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

Post by Ann Demko »

Thank you all for the input. Great advice. I would "enjoy" making a huge profit but I realize I must live in the real world. I do want to be part of the community art project but I also want the exposure this will bring me. It would thrill me to be able to create more metal/glass sculptures, I love working with a combination of the two. I like the idea of starting higher and giving myself some wiggle room. This is a real learning experience. In the future, I will have a much better discussion on what the clients want, budget etc. BEFORE I jump in with both feet and set myself up for disappointment. Again, thank you and I will keep you posted on the results of my presentation and how I used your all's advice to arrive at a price. Ann
Buttercup
Posts: 626
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:22 pm
Location: S.E. Queensland Australia

Re: How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

Post by Buttercup »

Anne, never, ever, consider 'wiggle room' part of your marketing strategy. If you drop your price it will appear that you tried to overcharge the client in the first place and will set a precedent for future negotiations.

If the price you quote exceeds the budget you can, however, offer to produce a different, or modified version, for a smaller fee, once the budget is revealed. It seems in this case that you don't yet have access to the budget information.

As advised by others already, if the potential client approaches you it is expected that you will need to know the budget that has been allocated, just as you need to know the projected size and location for the sculpture. With that information you can design within the guidelines. Make sure to specify a design fee which is payable whether the project goes ahead or not and covers your design time and production of drawings or a maquette.

If you have approached the potential client you have to evaluate not just the cost of producing the sculpture but what the exposure will be worth to you and whether a 'one-off' minimal profit project will damage your potential professional standing. If the sculpture is in a public place you may be able to mitigate your 'break even' status by obtaining a tax receipt for the value of your donation that you can use to reduce your taxable income. (That's outside my territory).

Be aware that some developers and even designers, will sometimes have a 'call for entries' saving themselves considerable expense and design effort and giving themselves free designs to choose from.

Whatever you do have a written proposal clearly describing the sculpture and spelling out the timeframe, cost, deposit and installment amounts and the responsibilities of the parties. Don't forget insurance and site prep. including electrical or plumbing, if required, and whether or not the street has to be blocked for delivery etc. Will it have to be delivered by a crane truck?

Have the client designate a contact person for you to deal with.

Have the client sign off on the design and don't make any alterations without the client's approval.

Good luck with it, Anne. Let us know how you do. Jen
Valerie Adams
Posts: 587
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Santa Rosa, California
Contact:

Re: How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

Post by Valerie Adams »

Great advice, Jen; I've saved it for future jobs that may come my way!
Tom Fuhrman
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:44 am
Location: eastern Tennessee
Contact:

Re: How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

Post by Tom Fuhrman »

One of the biggest problems I've run into on most public art jobs these days is being able to put together a slick enough presentation. I run into tons of architecture offices that don't have any architecture work so they have gotten into the public art arena. A small group of architects can put together presentaions that are simply outstanding and they will many times apply for several hundred jobs at the same time. In listing your qualifictions it's difficult to compete with those that have an architecture license as opposed to having a design or art degree even with many years of experience. The younger people with their savy of photoshop and other electronic media manipulation make some very good visual splashes. Public art jobs usually have a defined budget and are administered by a branch of state or local government which make it easy to know what and who you are dealing with.
The other private sector operates in a totally different mentality, and few have experience on how the process should work. Just keep your eyes and ears open and wander through it the best you can and occasionally you snag a good one. Having a good set of references and a portfolio that has a couple of jobs in it that exceed $50,000 always helps, although $50,000 might actually be low in today's world. and when you get the job, it will many times be difficult to meet their delivery and completion expectations.
Bert Weiss
Posts: 2339
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:06 am
Location: Chatham NH
Contact:

Re: How to figue a price for a significant sculpture

Post by Bert Weiss »

I would agree with Tom. The people I know who are the best at getting public art commissions make really impressive presentations including models and virtual slides showing their design installed in the space.
Bert

Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
Post Reply