Slump de frit??

[Kris Weber]

I'm not sure if this belongs in the kiln-forming or the kiln-casting forum, but advice would be greatly appreciated. What I would like to do is take frit wafers I have made, add them to additional layers of frit, take the composite piece to a tack fuse, then form the piece using a mold. A final sugar crystal appearance of pate de verre (lower temps) is desirable, but I could easily be persuaded to take these to a higher temp. I have several questions:

1. Some of the frit wafers are curled on the edges. This is largely the result of drawing on "old" Thin-fire with powders & frits, then tack fusing. I'm wavering between options: A) sifting a background layer of frit or powder and placing the frit wafers face up, then tack fuse, B) placing wafer face down and sifting over the top of the wafer then tack fuse, or C) sift separate background wafer, tack fuse background wafer, then tack fuse frit painted wafer to new background wafer. I'm leaning towards A or C. Is any one method more likely to work than another? Is the existing wafer curl going to relax or collapse enough -- I guess flatten -- at tack fuse temps, or am I fighting an uphill battle? Feedback would be most welcome.

2. If I go with option A or C, would it be worth using a binder to create a thicker, more uniform background wafer? I figured I could dam the edges or create a special background mold to maintain the desired shape.

3. It seems that slumping into a ceramic mold be fine, yes? I can't really see a need for a plaster mold unless creating a very specific shape. I'd like to get to that point shortly, but figured I'd flirt with some of my existing molds first. I'm leaning toward a slumping temp/time ratio that is long and low given that what is being slumped is tack-fused frit.

4. What would one call this kind of a technique?? It doesn't really seem to qualify as pate de verre. Patisserie de verre? Slump de wafer? Flurry of frit?? The only reason I ask is so that I can shortcut the information hunting time. Well, and it would be nice to know what it is I'm trying to do.

Your kind help is greatly appreciated,
Kris

http://community.webshots.com/user/camperdanielle
(wafers image will show you what the curl is like; fairly extreme in some cases. I weighted the edges of the Thin-fire, but sometimes it slips/shrinks out from under the glass strip weights.)

[Brock]

I'm not sure if this belongs in the kiln-forming or the kiln-casting forum, but advice would be greatly appreciated. What I would like to do is take frit wafers I have made, add them to additional layers of frit, take the composite piece to a tack fuse, then form the piece using a mold. A final sugar crystal appearance of pate de verre (lower temps) is desirable, but I could easily be persuaded to take these to a higher temp. I have several questions:

1. Some of the frit wafers are curled on the edges. This is largely the result of drawing on "old" Thin-fire with powders & frits, then tack fusing. I'm wavering between options: A) sifting a background layer of frit or powder and placing the frit wafers face up, then tack fuse, B) placing wafer face down and sifting over the top of the wafer then tack fuse, or C) sift separate background wafer, tack fuse background wafer, then tack fuse frit painted wafer to new background wafer. I'm leaning towards A or C. Is any one method more likely to work than another? Is the existing wafer curl going to relax or collapse enough -- I guess flatten -- at tack fuse temps, or am I fighting an uphill battle? Feedback would be most welcome.

The wafers should slump flat before tack fusing temps. I'd just place them on my powder blank and fire away.

2. If I go with option A or C, would it be worth using a binder to create a thicker, more uniform background wafer? I figured I could dam the edges or create a special background mold to maintain the desired shape.

3. It seems that slumping into a ceramic mold be fine, yes? I can't really see a need for a plaster mold unless creating a very specific shape. I'd like to get to that point shortly, but figured I'd flirt with some of my existing molds first. I'm leaning toward a slumping temp/time ratio that is long and low given that what is being slumped is tack-fused frit.

Yes to all above.


4. What would one call this kind of a technique?? It doesn't really seem to qualify as pate de verre. Patisserie de verre? Slump de wafer? Flurry of frit?? The only reason I ask is so that I can shortcut the information hunting time. Well, and it would be nice to know what it is I'm trying to do.

I don't know what it's called, but I have slides of this process from pre 1985. Very nice work!

Your kind help is greatly appreciated,
Kris

http://community.webshots.com/user/camperdanielle
(wafers image will show you what the curl is like; fairly extreme in some cases. I weighted the edges of the Thin-fire, but sometimes it slips/shrinks out from under the glass strip weights.)

[Kris Weber]

Thank you, Brock. Your timely response just might get me back into the studio tonight! I realize I do have additional questions:

My current thinking is that the base wafer should be reasonably thick, mmmm say a 1/4" or so, so it will hold up during the entire fuse/slump process. Is it feasible to work at a thinner, more delicate depth?

My second concern is that a finished piece that was much thinner would be so terribly delicate that it would easily break. Is this a warranted or unwarranted concern?

Humble thanks,
Kris

[Brock]

Thank you, Brock. Your timely response just might get me back into the studio tonight! I realize I do have additional questions:

My current thinking is that the base wafer should be reasonably thick, mmmm say a 1/4" or so, so it will hold up during the entire fuse/slump process. Is it feasible to work at a thinner, more delicate depth?

Absolutely! Far thinner.


My second concern is that a finished piece that was much thinner would be so terribly delicate that it would easily break. Is this a warranted or unwarranted concern?

It's warranted. It'll be delicate. The edges will crumble with any handling.

Humble thanks,
Kris

[Kris Weber]

It's warranted. It'll be delicate. The edges will crumble with any handling.

Silly me. Makes sense. It would be just like the present frit wafers; look at the edges cross-eyed and they crumble. If I am understanding your reply correctly, I could work at less than a 1/4" total pre-fire depth, but it would result in a very delicate finished piece that would not stand up to much handling. I guess my task is to figure out how far I can reasonably push that edge (no pun intended).

Warmly,
Kris

[Brock]

Exactly. I've never done this, (because I like the fragile appearance of the delicate edge of a wafer slowly dimming out and disappearing) but you could perhaps make some radial "ribs" of slightly mounded powder/frit. Combine that with a slightly mounded or finished edge, and I think it would survive. Probably wouldn't even be as delicate as some PdV.

[Kris Weber]

Know what you mean about the edges dimming out and disappearing; it is very appealing. Good food for thought. The little brain gears are turning away and I suspect that I'll be chewing on this all night (happily so).

Thank you!!
Kris

[Barbara Muth]

another option is to trim the delicate edges away with a saw or grinder. I like the delicate edges too, the way they fade into the base glass, but you are talking about a different animal here. Keep us posted on how this turns out, I can't wait to see!

Barbara

[Kris Weber]

Barbara, you are right; it is a bit of a different animal. I was mulling over grinding the edges last night. I grind the edges of the wafers now if I want to change the shape in any way. My husband and I were discussing how far I should push things given that packing and shipping might be problematic if the pieces are too fragile.

I have a couple of days of kiln work on a piece in progress (single kiln), then I can start in on this in earnest. In the meantime, I'll play with forming the bases and give the group an update on what works and what doesn't work.

Wish me luck,
Kris

P.S. good luck with trying the slower ramp up -- hope it does the trick for your pieces

[Jody Walker]

Kris -

I have found that when using powder wafers, the depth doesn't really matter when you are making the wafer itself. Thin, thick anything goes! Actually, using different thicknesses can be appealling, depending upon your design elements. However, for me, if they are too thin, when you go to tack fuse them, if they aren't capped with other glass, they will draw up on the edges and also some of the parts that are "wafer" thin, will actually almost disappear. Lastly, I never use any kind of binder with the wafer, just sift it as thick or thin as I like, depending upon my design.

Good luck!

jody

[Kris Weber]

Here is the update as promised:

I ended up using method A (loose frit with wafer face up, taken to tack fuse). Then slumping resulting wafer into ceramic molds (first a very shallow mold, then one with slightly steeper sides). After combing through the old archives again, the process if very much like the patisserie de verre session at BE Jim Simmons described and posted pictures.

All in all the result is OK. I chickened out on the really, really thin wafery edges and went for a neat edge. That I regret; little too neat and fussy looking. I also worked at a very thin depth; 1/8" before firing. Perhaps a little too thin since my fumble fingered extraction from the mold resulted in a hairline crack. But, it's an experiment, so I did learn from it.

Now waiting for a piece in kiln and then I'll try another batch and see what happens when modifying the process based upon current results. Rapidly moving toward mold making and a true PdV process if I can incorporate the existing frit wafers into the process (would like to keep the delicate detail in current wafers).

Feedback would be most welcome.

Thank you for the good advice so far. It certainly has helped!
Kris

http://community.webshots.com/user/camperdanielle (check the wafers category; quick shots of what was done and how it turned out.