any advice about a commission?

Rob Morey · Post by **Rob Morey** » Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:26 pm

On Tuesday I have a meeting to discuss a commission for someoneâ€™s residence. Iâ€™ve never done this before and Iâ€™m not sure how to proceed. From what she described to me, the space is am alcove in a wall that is about 3 feet square and 12â€

charlie holden · Post by **charlie holden** » Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:39 pm

Don't even think of taking less than a 50% deposit and be sure that that 50% covers ALL of your expenses. Send them test tiles of your ideas so that they sign off on something tangible that they've seen and held in their hands. Get solid bids from any subcontractors before you give your clients your bid. Add 15% to the subcontractor's bids for your own pain and suffering and to cover contingencies. Try to get the budget that the client has before you put together your bid and/or give them several bids representing different designs and processes, (casting costs more than fusing.) Don't listen to any of that, "This will be a big boost to your resume and reputation so you should give it to us cheap," stuff. You've got to eat.

charlie · Post by **charlie** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:08 pm

standard i do for stained glass commissions is 10% to start the design, based upon a rough idea dependant mostly on size and a very rough sketch, 40% on completion and signed acceptance of the design, and 50% on delivery.

the 10% gets them involved in the process and prevents someone from taking your design elsewhere for manufacturing.

haven't had any commissions for fused yet, although i'll probably use the same splits if/when.

ellen abbott · Post by **ellen abbott** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:08 pm

Absolutely, ask for 50% up front. I do several composition sketches at no charge but do not give them to the client. When I present the sketches, they have to make a commitment then. 50% to do a finished design and begin production. I do present the finished design before starting the work and provide a sample if need be. Sometimes, I will accept 10% to finish the design and then 40 % to begin work with the balance due on completion. At no time do I ever give the client a copy of the design unless they have put down the 50%. The exception is to designers and they know my rules.

When you present yourself and your price and your financial arrangements, do it with confidence. They mostly expect to have to pay a deposit.

E

Cynthia · Post by **Cynthia** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 5:11 pm

I've been doing a lot of these lately. It's been good. I charge $25.00/hr. design fee with a limit determined by client. $25.00 / hr. for changes, again limits can be placed by client. All designs remain mine and are paid for regardless of wether the client accepts them or not. The client gives me what they want, we are in agreement to begin with about the concept, so I've never encountered a situation where the design was not accepted.

Above and beyond the design fees, I charge per square inch for the fabrication. I don't do the install, the client needs to arrange for that seperately, unless it's a straight forward situation that doesn't require some kind of frame or engineering. I don't know how to make frames, so let someone who does make the installation gizmo's.

Design fees are paid as we go (first set of designs get paid for, and when/if changes are made those fees are paid then). 50% up front for fabrication is a must (and it's standard) and the balance upon delivery. My prices are ballpark to what my vessels retail for.

If you can accept a Word document, I can email you an attachment of the contract I use that spells out every possible step and who is expected to do what. Let me know, and I'll email it to you if you want it.

Paul Housberg · Post by **Paul Housberg** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 5:24 pm

On smaller commissions I may require a 50% deposit and 50% upon completion/installation which usually means within 30 days. On larger projects I will ask for 50% to start, 40% upon completion and PRIOR TO DELIVERY, 10% within 30 days after installation (which usually means 60, 90, 120 days and I have to chase it). These are typically hotel and corporate projects.

If the client balks at 50% up front, I may ask for, say, 30% to start, 30% upon 50% completion (or whatever milestone you can agree on), 30% prior to delivery, 10% after installation. Sometimes the final payment is 15 or 20%. As a general rule, I try to get as much money as I can before delivering the work, but both you and the client need to feel comfortable with the arrangement.

And you need to put something on paper. Doesn't need to be a formal contract for a job this size. It can be a simple letter of agreement. The purpose of the agreement is not so you can bring legal action against them; it's simply not worth it for a couple of grand unless you have a small claims court The purpose of the letter is to avoid a misunderstanding. Think of a written agreement as a tool for communication.

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:54 pm

I have a few basic rules. #1 is never put the cutter to the glass until the client has paid for it.

I don't like to get more than I need up front, although the client needs to be paying for any expenses you might have with their deposit.

What I don't like is getting too much up front, spending it on whatever and at the end I don't get enough to make it feel like I got paid. Its all a cash flow thing and we all know that the main flow is out.

I often work on 30% down and the remainder on delivery. No pay no delivery. If there are a lot of subcontractor expenses involved they need to be added on to my 30%. The big payday is good incentive to get the job done and delivered.

watershed · Post by **watershed** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:13 am

I would second a couple of things;

Write everything down.... Even if you just put a sentance on the bottom that says " I think through things better on paper, it helps me clarify my thoughts" I just did that on an informal offer to buy a house.

Delivery, NOT installation, unlees you are installing it. If you are installing it, Get the check BEFORE you leave the house. This prevents, buyer's remorse. If they have approved the design steps/samples, there's not backing out.

You mentioned 3 platters. IF you trust these people AND the pieces can be re-sold easily, I would, maybe, well probably not, but you could, charge them for your visits and consultation up front, and leave the major deposits for later. Thinking about it, 2 hrs drive EACH way (pick up supplies should be built into your price), I'd charge to show up the first time.
If you are generous, make it a refundable design fee, that they pay now, but will be taken off of the bill at the end. Of course you add that fee into the price of the pieces, but it makes the client feel better about cutting a check with nothing to show for it.

The other common sense thing is this. If they balk at writing a check for $100, for a design consultation, or $900 for a deposit, how easy is it going to be to get the rest of the $$$$ ? If the DO balk, just walk away nicely, send them a letter, thanking them for considering your work, and consider yourself lucky.

Final, of long winded.

The rich don't get rich by Spending money, they get rich by NOT spending money. (okay, on possesions) Just because a client can easily afford something, doesn't mean that they don't want the rock bottom price, or want to make you "Earn you pay"(waste your time until the price seems like a bargain).

Greg

ellen abbott · Post by **ellen abbott** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:27 am

Only one time did a prospective job say to me 'so-and-so will do it for this much (less)'. I told him, sounds like a good price, go for it. We got the job at the price I quoted.

This also works sometimes...if they hesitate because the price is too much for them, I tell them to let me know what they are comfortable spending and I can tailor the design to fit their budget.

e

watershed · Post by **watershed** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:51 am

Ellen, I especially fond of the so and so cheaper thing. In St Lou, the Pond field was fairly small. I fairly quickly found out who re-built, the "cheaper guy's" work. They didn't have the "cojones" to call me, but it DID bite them. I was guiltily pleased.

Greg

Dean Hubbard · Post by **Dean Hubbard** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:17 am

People either buy with a budget, or with their emotions. It's easier to work with people that buy with thier emotions. Sometimes you have to educate them if the price seems high at first. People on a budget can be harder to work with, set your boundries as to what you will do and for how much. Sometimes you don't get past this point. These kind of people can become a "time-drain". Make sure your "T's are crossed and your I's are dotted."

Upon approved plans or drawings, I present the client with a proposal that both parties sign. In this contract I include the scope of work to be performed and the payment agreement. I ask for a material payment upon signature and ballance due upon completion. On projects that involve long periods of time, I request progress payments. (What percentage of the job is complete every thirty days) On large commercial projects you sometimes have to agree to retention fees. (The client keeps 10% of the entire project after completion for a given amount of time)

I recently learned a lesson the hard way. One of my larger commercial accounts fell behind on the progress payments. They owed me over 17,000.00 for work I had already completed, not including retention. I pulled off the job and told them they had to pay me before I would go back to the jobsite. They simply told me that they needed to have the job completed before they could pay me anything! I finished that job about two months ago and they still owe me 5,000.00 in retention. (They are a month behind on that payment) I get to charge them a whopping 1 1/2% per month in late fees. That's a measly 75.00!

From here on out, I'm going to use the mechanics lien law with that firm.
I have two more contracts with them coming up and I'm going to file a pre-lien at least twenty days before I start any work. That way if they fall behind again, I will be able to file a lien against the property, a "stop work notice" will be issued and the entire job will come to a halt. Banks don't like that!

I took this matter before the owner of the company and informed him of my intentions, knowing full well he might not want to do business with me anymore, which was fine by me! He just shrugged his shoulders and said, "Well, it looks like we have to pay you on time now, don't we?" He signed the contracts and acted as if it was no big deal.

Well, it was a big deal for me! I had a couple of tough months there because of their inability to pay me on time.

Just be carefull and be wise! Protect yourself and get things in writting. Don't be afraid to ask for too much money upfront, remember you have expenses and overhead. Try to get a feel as to what type of person your client is.

Chances are, you might look back at this commission a year down the road and wonder why you didn't charge more.

Good Luck!