1st attempt at painting did not go well.

Bruce Larion · Post by **Bruce Larion** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:40 pm

I had never painted on glass before but wanted to paint japanese letters onto a fused piece. I got some FuseMaster Opal paints from a local stained glass store. They said they used vinegar as a medium for the paint. I mixed some canary yellow and painted 1 symbol onto BE adventurine green and a made some violet by mixing red and blue (with the vinegar) and painted another symbol onto BE opal. white. I did a full fuse at 300dph to 1250 with a 20 minute hold, then 200dph to 1475 with a 25 minute hold, flash vent to 960 then 200dph to 800 then 9999 to room temp. When I took the pieces out most of the canary yellow paint had disappeared (it was very wet when I painted it on) and the violet I had mixed and painted on white had turned to just blue.

Can anyone point me in the right direction? Is vinegar truely a medium to use? Did I fire to hot? They had told me that this paint was to fire from 1350-1550F. The first attempt certainly did not go well but looking for what to change on next attempt. Are these even the right paints?

Amy Schleif-Mohr · Post by **Amy Schleif-Mohr** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:01 pm

I have never used the paints you have used, I use Paradise Paints, but it sounds like you burned the red and yellow out. I would try firing to a lower temp. and venting the kiln. I have found that, especially, when using red that I have to have an oxygen rich environment.

Amy

jim simmons · Post by **jim simmons** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:18 pm

Amy Schleif-Mohr wrote:I have never used the paints you have used, I use Paradise Paints, but it sounds like you burned the red and yellow out. I would try firing to a lower temp. and venting the kiln. I have found that, especially, when using red that I have to have an oxygen rich environment.

Amy

The medium that we use is either "water friendly medium" from fusemaster or Klyrfire. And YES the reds and yellows need an O2 atmosphere.
Jim

Dani · Post by **Dani** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:30 pm

Amy Schleif-Mohr wrote:I have never used the paints you have used, I use Paradise Paints, but it sounds like you burned the red and yellow out. I would try firing to a lower temp. and venting the kiln. I have found that, especially, when using red that I have to have an oxygen rich environment.

Amy

That's interesting. The Chinese threw animal corpses into the kilns to enhance red glazes... presumably because the bones created a carbon-rich environment. I don't really know the chemistry behind it, but have wondered what would happen adding a chicken bone to a firing. Or even some charcoal. What do you think? I suppose the composition of the paint is a fundamental issue, too.

Amy Schleif-Mohr · Post by **Amy Schleif-Mohr** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:49 pm

It's absolutely in the chemistry. It's the same thing as firing ceramic glazes, they are different colors if fired in a reduction environment opposed to one that is oxygen rich. I only really have a working knoledge of Paradise paints, being that I know what I have to do to get them to turn out the way I want.

Amy

Bruce Larion · Post by **Bruce Larion** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:20 pm

Amy
Do you vent just through certain temp range or entire ramp up?

Amy Schleif-Mohr · Post by **Amy Schleif-Mohr** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:28 pm

All the way through process temp. Which for me and my kilns is somewhere b/w 1250 and 1300F I'd have to go back and look at my notes to find the exact temp that works for me, but it wouldn't work for you anyway. So, there is a target range for you to start in. This is the kind of thing that requires lots of testing in your kiln.
Amy

Amy Schleif-Mohr · Post by **Amy Schleif-Mohr** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:31 pm

I also want to make it clear that this is what works for me. Once I figured out what would work, I stopped looking. It is entirely possible that other people with more experience than I fire red and yellow Paradise Paints in a totally different way than I do.

Amy

Joseph Tracy · Post by **Joseph Tracy** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 11:36 pm

I have done a fair amount of glass painting with various paints.( you can see a sample of my work at http://www.brooksideglassworks.com ) Most translucuent enamels don't do well above 1300 degrees, let alone fuse temps.
Paradise has some high temp transparents mostly blues, greens, purple, brown.

No translucent yellow, orange or red that I know of will take fusing temps.

The best plan for incorporating a warm colored translucent enamel into a fused piece is to add it after fusing and fire at the recomended temp (between 1050F and 1250 f) If you want a perfectly smooth surface, you can paint the enamel on the back.

There is, however, a wide range of opaque enamels, as well as traditional vitreous glass paints that will fire at high temps.

There are some good warm-glass archives on combining fusing and painting and if you get seriously interested, get a copy of Albinus Elksus' book The art of painting on glass ( the best instructional book I have ever owned)

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:05 am

With the Sunshine series of Ferro enamels I get vibrant reds and yellows fired between 1380 - 1520ÂºF.

I suspect that vinegar is not sufficient as a medium. There is no binder present. Either you need to add gum arabic or use a water friendly medium. I'd go with the water friendly.

If I understand correctly the fusemaster enamels you used should take the temps.

Joseph Tracy · Post by **Joseph Tracy** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:09 am

Bruce: Just re-read your original post and thought i would add a few more notes to my last post. Vinegar is a fine traditional medium. The problem is with the specific enamel at fusing temp. Despite the name, Fusemaster transparent enamels don't work at fusing temperatures.(The lead free opaques should hold their color though I have found that their lead free black tends to diffuse and lose its edge at fusing temps)

It is always a good idea to do tests of paints before relying on them when fusing a final work.

Joseph Tracy · Post by **Joseph Tracy** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 12:44 am

Okay Bert
But if I remember, you said the Ferro enamels have a minimum order of $200.
Kind of a lot unless you do a heck of a lot of glass painting. Still I have to admit a strong interest in high fire red/yellow translucents. Can you tell me where to get a catalogue/price list and does anyone sell them in smaller quantities?

By the way. I have applied enamels without a binder several times with no problems apart from their fragility before getting them into the kiln. Gum makes a stickier paint but the medium doesn't sound like the problem to me.

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:51 am

Joseph Tracy wrote:Bruce: Just re-read your original post and thought i would add a few more notes to my last post. Vinegar is a fine traditional medium. The problem is with the specific enamel at fusing temp. Despite the name, Fusemaster transparent enamels don't work at fusing temperatures.(The lead free opaques should hold their color though I have found that their lead free black tends to diffuse and lose its edge at fusing temps)

It is always a good idea to do tests of paints before relying on them when fusing a final work.

Fusemaster transparent enamels are rated for 1175ÂºF. The opaque series is rated at 1300 - 1550, I think. They are translucent when applied thinly.

Joe.

Ferro has a $100 minimum order and will sell as little as 100 grams per color. Reusche has a $75 minimum, no big difference. The $200 sample set for Sunshine series is a great deal. There are 19 colors and clear flux. Most colors are 100 gram packages and the expensive colors come in 50 gram. These include gold reds and cobalt. You can buy many of the Ferro colors through Reusche, but I prefer to deal direct with the manufacturer. The only downside is that due to contnuing corporate shakeups they do not have a published catalog or website that I know of. You might be familiar with these enamels as Drakenfeld or Deguza.

Tom White · Post by **Tom White** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:08 am

Joseph, German overglaze colors which fire from 1348 to 1472 F are available in 1 dram (volume measurement) glass vials priced from $1.50 to $8.95 per vial dependent upon pigment raw material costs from Mr. & Mrs. of Dallas. Web site is http://mrandmrsofdallas.com/Products/Ov ... Paints.htm
They also offer more opaque leadfree colors which fire to 1525 F. Use the buttons at the bottom of the page to view the color names and prices of these as well. If you find what you like they also sell the colors in 8 oz. and 1 lb. quantities.

Best wishes,
Tom in Texas

rosanna gusler · Post by **rosanna gusler** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:02 am

when ordering from mr/mrs make sure the color you want is actually in stock. they will take the order and then ship what they have. i wanted a fairly full set of colors to test and two were out. i found that out when my order arrived. they said they might be in in a couple of months. comming from china or something. i was fairly dissapointed. maybe time to call back. rosanna

Dani · Post by **Dani** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:21 pm

Are German overglaze colors from Mr/Mrs Reusche knock-offs? Or more akin to the real china paints? Just curious. Thanks.

Tom White · Post by **Tom White** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:00 pm

Dani, since Mr. & Mrs. are primarily china paint suppliers the paints they offer are true china paints. I'm not sure what if any differences there are between china paints and Reusche colors. To my knowledge they are all low fire glass based enamels. Used in thin layers as paint it does not seem to be affected too much by the COE of the glass or porcelain substrate to which it is applied.

Best wishes,
Tom in Texas