Pyrometer, bubbles, kiln temps UPDATE

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Carla Fox
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Pyrometer, bubbles, kiln temps UPDATE

Post by Carla Fox »

I've been doing my research on what to do re: my bubble problem. I'm sharing in case this is helpful info for others.

To recap:
I was in production mode, making lots of 8.5" full circle plates, 2 layers. An all of a sudden I went from little pin prick bubbles between the layers, to big lumpy bubbles, with the same schedule and same glass. I am now trying to track down all the variables that could have caused this and am working on a the theory that my kiln temp is not really what my Rampmaster is telling me.

I called my kiln manufacturer, Evenheat. How do I test the temp in the kiln is accurate? They suggest I change out my thermocoupler first. They feel these should be changed every 2 years. And they had no pyrometers, but thought a pyrometer was a good idea to double check the kiln. So I've ordered a new thermocoupler and went back on the hunt for a pyrometer.

I called Bullseye. They also like the idea but do not sell pyrometers.

I called the local ceramic store. I talked to the kiln repair guy. He said to skip the pyrometer (tho they do sell them). He suggested I get a bunch of cones for different temps and set them in the kiln (bracketed so I have lower, exact, and a higher temp cone) and do some temp tests at these cone's temp. (He thinks this is a more accurate way to check the kiln temp) He said run the kiln temp up to the exact cone temp, check to see it if starts to bend, after 15 min it should be bent all the way. The lower and upper temp cones will tell me if I am off. Am I explaining this clear?

So, I'm going to try this, and I may still buy a pyrometer.

More Updates, if ya want em.

Carla
Oregon
:|
Phil Hoppes
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Post by Phil Hoppes »

If you are looking for a good temp probe Omega Engineering has a nice selection. Here is one I found for under $100

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref= ... Nav=teml09

You will need to buy a thermocouple probe for this unit. That should run you $15 to $25 more depending upon what you buy.

Phil
Brock
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Post by Brock »

Hey Phil, are you working on the beast? Brock
Brock
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Post by Brock »

More Updates, if ya want em.

Carla
Oregon

Yes, keep us in the loop, you're certainly not the only one who'll have this problem/. Brock
Tony Smith
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Post by Tony Smith »

Here is the information from the old archives that I posted a year and a half ago on the Omega thermocouple meter:

Visit http://www.omega.com. They have a number of handheld thermocouple meters including 2 low-cost units. Model HH11 is $65 with an LCD display and model HH307 has a fluorescent display for $75. Both come with 36" long thermocouples, but the insulation isn't rated for the high temperatures of a kiln. The thermocouples should still work, even after the first inch of insulation burns off, but I'm not sure. To eliminate that problem, I ordered a XC-20-K-12 thermocouple which is rated for 2200°F continuous. It comes standard with a 12" lead (-12) for $16, but you can increase in 6" increments for $2/6 inches. Just change the dash number to whatever length you want. I bought the -24 for $20 to keep the meter away from the kiln. Then you need an SMP-K-M male miniature connector for another $1.75. Omega may even assemble them for you, but I never asked. So, for under $100, you can get a thermocouple display that is accurarate to within a degree, which is much more accurate than a pyrometer. If you do decide to go this route, when you attach the connector to the probe, remember that + is yellow and - is red. They never make this clear, but it affects thermocouple performance.

Tony
The tightrope between being strange and being creative is too narrow to walk without occasionally landing on both sides..." Scott Berkun
Carla Fox
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Post by Carla Fox »

Tony:

Thank you! This is so helpful.

But I need to ask some dumb questions, re: what words to use.

I have a thermocoupler in my kiln (soon to be replaced).

What I am wanting inaddition is a probe type thermometer to stick in the peep hole or drape under the lid to test the temp.

I picture a long pokey thing connected with wires to a box that tells me what the temp is.

I've been calling this thingy a pyrometer. But you are saying the long pokey thing should be rated to take our kilns temp (makes sense) and is called a thermocouple.

If I'm going to order this stuff I need to know what I am asking for.

Thanks!

Carla :? who usually calls all this stuff by less technical terms
Brock
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Post by Brock »

The long pokey thing is the thermocouple.

The read out part is the pyrometer.

Brock
Tony Smith
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Post by Tony Smith »

Okay, here goes:

The thingy that sticks into the kiln and senses the temperature is called a thermocouple. It it made from two different metal wires that are welded together at one end. Where the two metals come together at the weld, a voltage is created. This voltage changes when the temperature goes up or down and can be measured and converted to degrees by a thermocouple meter or a thermocouple display. You can also measure the voltage with a voltmeter and look up the temperature on a chart, http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z218-220.pdf but it's more fun to spend your time working on glass. If you are interested in reading about thermocouple properties and principles, look at http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z021-032.pdf.

There are different types of thermocouples depending on the two metals used. They have different "useful" temperature ranges. For us, the most popular type of thermocouple is the K-type thermocouple which is Nickel-Chromium/Nickel-Aluminum and has a useful range to about 2300°F. Denver uses an R-type themocouple in their kilns and they are rated to about 2650°F. Thermocouples also come in different gauge wire. I listed the 20 gauge thermocouple, but many kilns use 16 gauge thermocouples because they're more rugged and they are permanently installed... but, they are very stiff, and hard to handle. If you don't bump it every time you load/unload the kiln, a 20 gauge thermocouple works really well.

The information that I posted was for a Thermocouple meter that runs on a 9 volt battery. The thermocouple that I specified is K-type and is 24" long and I usually use it by sticking it through the peephole, through a hole in the peephole plug, or through a 3/16" hole in the back of my 8" AIM kiln. You can make the thermocouple lead as long as you like. A 6 foot long lead wouldn't be unreasonable, but might get in the way.

The term pyrometer is typically used for a self-powered thermocouple meter. It is usually a needle type display and has limited resolution and accuracy. Even the expensive pyrometers (about $300 USD) have an accuracy of only 2% Full Scale. What that means is that on a 2000°F pyrometer, you can only be assured that your temperature reading is within ±40°F. If you are trying to hit 960°F, you might be at 1000°F, or at 920°F. And this is for the expensive pyrometers. The inexpensive pyrometers that are mounted to the small kilns may be off by 100°F or more.

The $65 model HH-11 thermocouple meter has an accuracy of 0.3% of the reading +2° or ±6.5° at 1500°F... not bad for the money. This is typical, expected performance for any modern thermocouple meter.

Omega is the world's largest manufacturer of thermocouples and most of their thermocouples are manufactured right here in the good old US of A. I wouldn't be surprised if other "manufacturers" bought their thermocouples from Omega.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Tony
The tightrope between being strange and being creative is too narrow to walk without occasionally landing on both sides..." Scott Berkun
Tony Serviente
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Post by Tony Serviente »

Carla-Before you ditch the thermocouple, do you know all your elements are working. If not, then your controller may be forced to take longer to get to the target temp, and overcook on the way. One clue would be that your kiln was alot hotter at the end of the cycle than it used to be. If you are doing attended firings you'd probably pick up on this, but if not it could go unnoticed, except for the big bubble problem. Easiest way to check all elements are working is to peek in when it's over 1300 and see it they are all be glowing orange. Wear safety glasses and cotton, and be quick.
Phil Hoppes
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Post by Phil Hoppes »

Hi Brock,

Yep. Got the fiberboard just about all in. Going for the blanket insulation next. Will probably get the elements in tomorrow. Turns out this is pretty late in the season for everybody (which was my big concern) so I'm going it kind of solo. A friend of ours has a foreign exchange student from Germany here so I've got him helping out. You definitely need two people on a lot of the tasks, especially anchoring down the elements and insulation as you need to feed the stainless wire through and have someone else bend the wires in place. Coming along nicely. Wish I had a web site or something and I'd post some pictures. I'll ask Jackie and see if she can post a few snapshots.

Ltr,

Kiln Stuffing Boy
Brock
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Post by Brock »

That's great Phil. I'm glad you're almost done. I'd love to see some pics . . . in fact, did you happen to document the whole procedure?

If so, it would be great for slide shows, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Brock
Phil Hoppes
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Post by Phil Hoppes »

Hi Brock

Yep. Lots of pictures, with lots of details. I've over geeked this thing as you can probably guess. I've embedded a bunch of thermocouples at intermediate layers within the insulation so I can characterize the entire kiln in a very detailed manner. Much of what I've heard on kiln building, especially wrt the amount of insulation, what type and how much has been foggy at best. My aim is to take a lot of data and then with my son, hopefully produce a simplified model that others could be able to use. The analysis is quite complicated but with some emperical data we should be able to simplify it quite a bit. Yes, and I will make a bunch of slides too......nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean, know what I mean ....... :wink: :wink:
Brock
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Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:32 pm
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Post by Brock »

Phil Hoppes wrote:Hi Brock

Yep. Lots of pictures, with lots of details. I've over geeked this thing as you can probably guess. I've embedded a bunch of thermocouples at intermediate layers within the insulation so I can characterize the entire kiln in a very detailed manner. Much of what I've heard on kiln building, especially wrt the amount of insulation, what type and how much has been foggy at best. My aim is to take a lot of data and then with my son, hopefully produce a simplified model that others could be able to use. The analysis is quite complicated but with some emperical data we should be able to simplify it quite a bit. Yes, and I will make a bunch of slides too......nudge, nudge, wink, wink, know what I mean, know what I mean ....... :wink: :wink:
Could be taken on holidays . . . fantastic Phil. Can't wait. I totally agree about the foggy factor, your information should be in great demand.Brock
Kevin Midgley
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Post by Kevin Midgley »

[quote="Tony Serviente"]Carla-Before you ditch the thermocouple, do you know all your elements are working. If not, then your controller may be forced to take longer to get to the target temp, and overcook on the way.

What about the voltage you are delivering your kiln? At this time of year with Christmas lighting etc. your firing shedules can go off. Might be worth looking into. I have noticed a slow down in the firing times in the past at this time of year. Since you don't have the full power being delivered the kiln takes longer to reach top temperature which means you might be holding your kiln at the upper end of your firing shedule longer than you thing and thus causing your firing changes.
Kevin
Phil Hoppes
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Post by Phil Hoppes »

I would suspect longer firing times more from cooler temperatures not drop in line voltage from holiday lighting. Even a modest display of lighting does not equal having two or three 100 watt indoor bulbs on, unless you are using very old lighting. If your power company is dropping their line voltage for this reason there is something seriously wrong with their generation/delivery system.

Phil
Carla Fox
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Post by Carla Fox »

Damn. My head swirls with the possibilities of what could be going wrong. This problem has existed since the summer, so I will rule out holiday lights. BUT! we live far from town & I periodically get errP codes tho nothing seems to have happened and the kiln is cooking along. And no, the errP code does not coincide with big bubbles.

I will check all my elements. I have fancy glasses that will protect my eyes while I peek in.

I'm still thinking I'm warming up too fast on the starting end. As I know from my banging the plates on a table days I am well annealed.

Thanks all. I really appreciate your input.

Carla
Wallace Venable
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Post by Wallace Venable »

For information on REALLY CHEAP pyrometry, see my page

http://www2.cemr.wvu.edu/~venable/rmi/s ... ermo-1.pdf

There is a "look-up" voltage-temperature table at

http://www2.cemr.wvu.edu/~venable/rmi/s ... -table.htm
Wally Venable, Student of glass
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