What type of kiln to buy to make sink?

SWalsh · Post by **SWalsh** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:25 am

I have a friend who wants to buy a kiln to slump sinks in. She has NO experience with fusing and I'm concerned that she's biting off more than she can chew... but what the heck, she asked for my advice! I haven't even made the "perfect" vase with my drop ring yet so I'm turning to this forum for help. She's got the money to spend... and I don't want to give her bad advice. She has a 220 (is that right?) line available for it. What do you folks suggest? Thanks. Sue

rosanna gusler · Post by **rosanna gusler** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:09 am

i would advise her to take a sink class. rosanna

Phil Hoppes · Post by **Phil Hoppes** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:51 am

I would advise her to take some basic fusing glasses first. Then take a sink class. Then take a good look at her wallet and make sure she wants to make a lot of sinks. If all she wants is one sink for herself, take a class. To make good, professional sinks, takes a good investment. Nothing new here...you get out what you put in.

Phil

SWalsh · Post by **SWalsh** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:59 pm

I totally agree with everyone on the class issue. I told her about the one coming up in New Hampshire but she has twin boys (age 2 in May!!) so she can't make leave home for that long. She and I have done stained glass for years but since the boys arrived, she's short on time. She has also done pottery so is familiar with clay-type kilns. And she's got the money so what kiln should I recommend? Sue

Brock · Post by **Brock** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:03 pm

It doesn't matter, any kiln big enough and deep enough. But, I have to heartily agree with the other posters. Brock

Phil Hoppes · Post by **Phil Hoppes** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:29 pm

Paragon GL24 will work nice. Skutt makes great kilns but I don't know if the clamshell everyone likes is deep enough to slump. You need probably a minimum of 10" to 12" internal height to fit the mold, have the glass on the top of the mold and not have the glass right next to the elements.

First she needs to find a mold she likes and then find a kiln that will give her about 2" clearance on all sides and probably 4"-5" clearance on from the top of the GLASS (add about 1" to the top of the mold for this) to the top of the kiln where the elements are.

Phil

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:46 pm

Want to get scared. Look in to a Morretti Italian kiln designed to make sinks.

Learn to walk then think about sinks. The last thing you want to be doing is figuring out why they keep breaking, when you have not the slightest clue.

lohman · Post by **lohman** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:52 pm

All of the above plus:
She has to drill the drain hole and maybe cut the rim off if she doesn't want a wide, flat rim, and if she cuts off the rim then she has to grind and polish (or fire-polish) the rim. Sinks are not easy.

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:51 pm

If she wants to capitilize a sink making business, she should talk to me.

If she is a hobbyist, she should talk to Marty Daly at Center de Verre, a board sponsor, just click on the link. Marty has a wide variety of price points including lots of possibilities for sink making.

The prevailing advice on kilns and air compressors is to buy the largest one you can afford.

The Morretti sink making kiln is the Ferrari of units. Somebody imports them to the US.

lohman · Post by **lohman** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:38 pm

I'll talk to you about the sink business.

I've had a lot of inquiries about sinks (bath basins) but only one commission.
Didn't make a lot of money on this one but it did pay me to
learn.
I got $550 for this one but I've been ballbarking $1200.00. I based my ballpark price on other sinks I've seen Am I asking too much?

I'd insert a jpeg here but I don't know how. (Help!)

It's in my photoalbum:
<http://photos.yahoo.com/eugenelohman

stargazer · Post by **stargazer** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:58 pm

Is it possible to sandblast the plumbing hole in the bottom of the sink?

Brock · Post by **Brock** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:05 pm

Yes. Brock

lohman · Post by **lohman** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:10 am

How long should it take to sandblast the drain hole? My blasting set-up is quite limiting and I know it would take hours.
(I'm aware of the recent discussions on blasting equipment, but I haven't been able to up-grade yet.)

Brock · Post by **Brock** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:52 am

lohman wrote:How long should it take to sandblast the drain hole? My blasting set-up is quite limiting and I know it would take hours.
(I'm aware of the recent discussions on blasting equipment, but I haven't been able to up-grade yet.)

It just depends on the system and the pressure you can produce.

You can blast that hole through 1/2" plate in minutes. Brock

watershed · Post by **watershed** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:24 am

Arrrrghh Grumpy grumpy reply.

I'm sorry, but one cannot make a $1200 sink for $12..... Especially not your first 50 or so.

If you are going to clear, say $100 on your sink, what is $100 for a decent drill bit???? You can make at least 100 sinks with the drill bit, you just have to postpone that bottle of Dom, until you have done 20 sinks.

There IS a REASON why these sinks in the magazines cost what they do. The people who make them have spent years, and hundreds (HUNDREDS) of firings to get them right. AND they have spent the $$$$ on the equipment to make them right.

I'm sure that I will make Myself a sink. I'm sure that I will make my Mother a sink (when asked). I'm sure that I will not get into the BUSINESS of making sinks, without a whole lot of education and failures. The difference is, if MY sink breaks, or my MOM'S sink breaks, it's no big deal (as long as it's less than 10 stitches). But if you SELL that sink, $10,000 would be the MINIMUM that you would be sued for.

Walk before you run, otherwise you'll hit you head on the coffee table. Or maybe the bathroom sink.....

As a BFA in Clay, and a masters Student in Glass. Yes things are similar. But annealing is a lot more touchy than firing pots. Think Raku, everyday, every firing. Yes after the first 10 firings, you get a clue, but you still get surprised, usually badly.

Greg

lohman · Post by **lohman** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:39 am

Watershed,

I don't undestand. Are you talking to the potential buyer who thinks $1200 is too much for a sink? Or are you saying that I shouldn't be asking $1200 right off the bat? I don't get it. Are you responding to the person who wants to buy a kiln so she can make a sink or are you talking to me?
I just want to understand your post. My question was basically is $1200 too much to ask for a sink? And if it is too much to ask is it because I haven't made 200 sinks yet? What do you mean by your reference to trying to make a $12.00 sink Please explain.

Phil Hoppes · Post by **Phil Hoppes** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:48 am

lohman wrote:Watershed,

I don't undestand. Are you talking to the potential buyer who thinks $1200 is too much for a sink? Or are you saying that I shouldn't be asking $1200 right off the bat? I don't get it. Are you responding to the person who wants to buy a kiln so she can make a sink or are you talking to me?
I just want to understand your post. My question was basically is $1200 too much to ask for a sink? And if it is too much to ask is it because I haven't made 200 sinks yet? What do you mean by your reference to trying to make a $12.00 sink Please explain.

$1200 is fine for a sink and probably on the low side I would say. Mine are between $1200 and $1800 depending on what design, what glass, etc. Go to a high end plumging store, Expo (Home Depot high end store), Great Indoors. You will be flabergasted at what they are selling and what they are asking. I saw a slab of float, crude design...simply a drop with a little sand etching or fiber carving on the bottom on a cheezy metal stand. $2800.00. And they will probably get it.

As other posters above have pointed out, you don't get something for nothing. You need glass drill bits. You need edge grinders and maybe even surface grinders and polishers. You need LOTS of patience. A 3/4" slab of BE glass taken to fusing temperatures and cooled to room temp takes around 30 hours and actually more like 36 - 40 before it is safely cooled. Depending on how you make your sink, your design, if you firepolish, how you do it, etc. You could have quite a few of these VERY long cycles. The cost in electricity is a little factor but probably the cost of tying up your kiln for one project for probably 1 - 2 weeks is a bigger factor. Can you afford that time? You be the judge.

All that being said, I think they are a gas to do. I don't work with float but having 6 layers of BE glass to play with opens up all kinds of possibilities with respect to working deep. You can put color on the surface, inside and on the back. You can work with textures. You can work with shape. To me at least it is just as much art as anything else talked about on this board, it just happens to have a practiacl application when it is done. They are not simple, but they are not impossible either, just go in with your eye's open as to what you are getting into.

Phil

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:30 am

Offering customer service is probably the biggest expense in the sink biz. Plumbers have zero experience in installing glass sinks and are pretty likely to break them. Replacement percentages are high.

This is another case where you need to charge enough to make the item 3 times and still turn a profit, or you will go bankrupt.

6 layers of BE Fired several times is a spendy situation. I fire my sinks twice, once to fuse and texture and once to slump. They are made with 2 layers of 10mm. I pay around 2.50 per square foot for my 10mm float glass, and at least 50% is waste.

Diamond core drills are expensive. The cheap ones wear out way quicker than they are rated. The more expensive ones actually cost less per hole.

Looking at the going rates in the marketplace is probably the best way to asses prices. If the company is staying in business, that is a good sign.

lohman · Post by **lohman** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:13 am

Thanks Bert and Phil,
That is the kind of feedback I was looking for. Maybe I benefitted from beginers luck on my first sink. I am well aware of all the pitfalls and the labor, patience, production costs of making a sink, but I just wanted to know if my $1200 ballpark is truley in the ballpark. I guess it is.
Thanks again.

SWalsh · Post by **SWalsh** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:48 am

My thanks to all for advice. I received a call this morning and Dianna has had her kiln ordered. Should be here within 10 days or so. She went with an evenheat and it fits all the dimension recommendations I was given. RevJerry is going to work with her when she gets her kiln. She's done a little fusing with him and he's going to sort-of mentor her. Sue