Tempered glass question

Annah James · Post by **Annah James** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:28 am

I have a client that needs some glass for interior windows, and wants them built out of tempered glass. Does anyone out there know if I fire tempered glass up to 1425 or so if it remains 'tempered'? Thanks!

Brad Walker · Post by **Brad Walker** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:29 am

Once you fire above the annealing point, the glass will cease to be tempered.

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:29 am

Annah wrote:I have a client that needs some glass for interior windows, and wants them built out of tempered glass. Does anyone out there know if I fire tempered glass up to 1425 or so if it remains 'tempered'? Thanks!

You can kiln carve float glass and have it tempered. This is what I do for many of my projects. I use Unifrax 970 papers and fire my 10mm (3/8" float glass to 1365 with an hour soak. The heavier the glass, the easier it forms in the kiln and the better the finished product looks. You can get away with 1/4" or 3/16" if you have to, but you will have to fire it hotter and use an overglaze. The thinner the glass, the greater the challenge to temper it as well. I'll be teaching this process, along with sink making, in a 6 day class after the WGWE at Millennium Arts Center in DC.

I have no idea what companies will temper for you in the west. Not all companies will be cooperative.

You can not temper glass that has any bubbles in it or it will disintegrate during the cooling process. As I have said before 10 mm glass is heated to 1100ÂºF in 5 minutes and cooled to room temp in 7 minutes. About 1 minute in to the cooling it will pop apart or remain stable.

lohman · Post by **lohman** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:11 pm

I've contacted several companies that listed themselves as manufacturers of tempered glass and they all said they couldn't temper my fired glass panels. I'm in the DC area and would be interested in finding a cooperative glass shop to temper my glass. I'm talking to a client now who is interested in my glass for a shower enclosure.
HELP!
Thanks in advance.

Brock · Post by **Brock** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:15 pm

lohman wrote:I've contacted several companies that listed themselves as manufacturers of tempered glass and they all said they couldn't temper my fired glass panels. I'm in the DC area and would be interested in finding a cooperative glass shop to temper my glass. I'm talking to a client now who is interested in my glass for a shower enclosure.
HELP!
Thanks in advance.

You can kiln carve, or sandblast, float glass then have it tempered, with a pretty high success rate. Over 90%. Some company may try to temper your fired panels, AT YOUR RISK, but it's extremely doubtful that it will survive. We need tech assistance. Mary Kay? Brock

lohman · Post by **lohman** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:29 pm

Thanks Brock, but could you name names? I know there is a risk.

Brock · Post by **Brock** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:46 pm

I don't know where you are, just look in the Yellow Pages.
I don't think you should do this. Brock

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 9:33 pm

lohman wrote:I've contacted several companies that listed themselves as manufacturers of tempered glass and they all said they couldn't temper my fired glass panels. I'm in the DC area and would be interested in finding a cooperative glass shop to temper my glass. I'm talking to a client now who is interested in my glass for a shower enclosure.
HELP!
Thanks in advance.

I understand that finding a company around DC might be a challenge. I contacted one company to ask if I could take a class for a tour and they said no. I didn't get to ask if they would fire my glass. Next, I'll start looking in Jersey. Any help here would be appreciated if anybody has local knowledge.

I do shower enclosures. They are very tricky. You need exact sizes and exact placement of holes and notches.

What glass are you using? What size?

lohman · Post by **lohman** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:01 pm

Bert,
I plan to design around (within) the limits of my kiln which are 28" x 58" or there abouts. Will use 1/4" float to start or maybe 3/8" if I can get it tempered. I checked the old archives and read the discussion about resin laminate between my kiln-formed glass and tempered glass. Sounds tricky dealing with trapped air pockets. Thought I might create a spacer around all edges and fill the space from the bottom using a basket ball air filler tip set in at the bottom and maybe pump the resin in with air or raise my resovoir above the level of the glass panels which will be secured in a vertical position short dimension up.
Any thoughts?

Luiza · Post by **Luiza** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:09 pm

Bert Weiss wrote:
I'll be teaching this process, along with sink making, in a 6 day class after the WGWE at Millennium Arts Center in DC.

Bert, you are not beeig fair with me. SINK CLASSES. IÂ´d give my kingdom to have a chance to go to your sink classes, but the truth is no one is interested in my kingdom

Luiza

Tom Fuhrman · Post by **Tom Fuhrman** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:55 pm

Rather than temper the piece of glass, would it be possible to sandwich the piece between 2 pieces of tempered glass, like a standard insulated unit? You could use tempered 3/16" on each side and put your carved or formed piece in the middle. this would also prevent the design from getting dirty or dusty like a standard etched piece has a custom of getting after a few years of use with soapy water. This would necessitate a thicker frame but extrusions to accomodate this are available. Just an idea! Tenn. Tom

Annah James · Post by **Annah James** » Wed Jun 25, 2003 10:56 pm

I sure appreciate all the responses! I guess that I will call my client and let her know that we'll have to do the resin - layer thing. There's a glass guy up in Portland (Oregon) who will do the resin for me. I think he told me that it's about $15 / sq foot.

At least I now have information! Thanks again!
annah

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 12:29 am

Fuhrman Glass Studios Inc wrote:Rather than temper the piece of glass, would it be possible to sandwich the piece between 2 pieces of tempered glass, like a standard insulated unit? You could use tempered 3/16" on each side and put your carved or formed piece in the middle. this would also prevent the design from getting dirty or dusty like a standard etched piece has a custom of getting after a few years of use with soapy water. This would necessitate a thicker frame but extrusions to accomodate this are available. Just an idea! Tenn. Tom

I'm not a code expert but I can tell you what I've seen. A shower enclosure has to be safety glass. Of that I am sure. Any frameless design has to be tempered. Of that I am also sure. Whether or not you can get away with framed laminated glass, I'm not sure.

I've never seen the IG style in a shower. I'm pretty sure that it would be fraught with problems of moisture and sealing and condensing etc. Not to mention strength weight and size. I don't think so.

Laminating with resin is certainly a tricky process with a learning curve. I would never recommend that somebody devise a way to do it unless you have years of experience doing it the manufacturers suggested way.

In order to do a 58" panel, you would have to build a knee wall probably tile covered. Then place an aluminum channel on the knee wall and on the ceiling and slide the glass in to the channel. the glass has to sit on neoprene setting blocks placed at the quarter points. This would be doable. I don't know how you could do a door that short. You can't unless it is for children or midgets.

What you might get away with is laminating a design of any kind of glass using the resin on to a sheet of tempered glass. I have seen installations similar to this that laminates more than one piece of glass on to a sheet of tempered. The Kersey glass piece at Postrio's in Las Vegas did that with antique glasses. It is, however, stationary.

There are 2 manufacturers of laminating resins that feature low contraction rates (3%) and would be suitable for this demanding application. Zircon and Bohle make them. There are many formulations of laminating resins that are not advisable because they have a 12 or 13% shrinkage rate and you can guess what that stress will do to multicolored fused glass.

Isn't pushing the envelope fun???

lohman · Post by **lohman** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 9:14 am

Bert,
Thanks for the feedback, and yes, pushing the envelope is fun and frustrating at times. Thanks also for the leads on resin manufacturers.

Part of the prooblem is that this shower enclosure is for an existing location so I haven't had the pleasure or advantage of designing from the ground up. This enclosure is to be fitted to an existing jacuzzi and of course it is fiber glass or something like that.

I think I should propose installation of a commercially constructed ( and installed) enclosure onto which I can laminate the designs and patterns they want. If I cut and fire individual design elements I can uv glue them onto the glass without adding alot of weight. Also, I'll have to find a shop that will lap grind and polish the elements before installation.

Thanks also th Furhman Studios. I think the elaborate sandwich is too risky in terms of weight and possiiblity of moisture leackage.

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 11:34 am

lohman wrote:
I think I should propose installation of a commercially constructed ( and installed) enclosure onto which I can laminate the designs and patterns they want. If I cut and fire individual design elements I can uv glue them onto the glass without adding alot of weight. Also, I'll have to find a shop that will lap grind and polish the elements before installation.

One of the advantages of resin laminating is that you wouldn't have to grind and polish your back surface. The resin will fill the texture right up. I wish there were more places with experience resin laminating so we could send work out to be done. Wouldn't that be nice. It sounds like there are a few people in Portland OR who can do it well.

Annah James · Post by **Annah James** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 12:11 pm

Do you have contact info for the zircon and bohle folks? What about HXTAL? Have you used it? I am just getting ready to try it on a job where I have 16" wide x 59" tall plate glass panels 1/2" thick, that then have 8" tiles laminated to them. THey are stationary. What do you think?
thanks! - Annah

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 12:52 pm

Annah James wrote:Do you have contact info for the zircon and bohle folks? What about HXTAL? Have you used it? I am just getting ready to try it on a job where I have 16" wide x 59" tall plate glass panels 1/2" thick, that then have 8" tiles laminated to them. THey are stationary. What do you think?
thanks! - Annah

If you need to look at the back side and get a clean view, it will be a challenge no matter how you choose to do it. I don't have the experience to say what will or will not work.

For Bohle contact Bullseye connection. Zircon 901/383-9307

Hxtal takes a week to set up and costs a lot (do I remember $600 a gallon). It does not do well in thick application. It works well for glueing 2 layers of float. I once used Hxtyl to edge glue a shattered glass painting. When I was done it looked like a broken sheet of glass but it was in one piece. It was a 19th century glass painting so it was worth the effort to preserve it.

UV glues need to be degassed if you don't want bubbles. I have only used them to glue float so I can't say.

In order to do the 8" tiles it will be tedious to do with the resin. You will have to start at the bottom row and go up one row at a time, because you have to pour in the resin from a hole in the top. No matter how you do it, it will be messy. Be sure to get some of the cleanup solvents.

You might try a test with a few silicones. They are not as crystal clear. will also be messy, but possibly the most practical. look for the latest product in clear. I don't know what that is these days. CR Laurence 1-800-421-6144 in california.

lohman · Post by **lohman** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 3:45 pm

I don't have to grind the back surface? Doesn't the fired edge with it's roundness create an undercut that would be hard to keep clean? Is there some ooze of excess resin to trim away with an Exacto knife after curing?

I'll have to make a sample piece to show the client (and then I'll have one to show at my weekend markets and sell more enclosures!).

Thanks for your help Bert.

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 5:22 pm

lohman wrote:I don't have to grind the back surface? Doesn't the fired edge with it's roundness create an undercut that would be hard to keep clean? Is there some ooze of excess resin to trim away with an Exacto knife after curing?

I'll have to make a sample piece to show the client (and then I'll have one to show at my weekend markets and sell more enclosures!).

Thanks for your help Bert.

You lost me there. Why would grinding the backsurface effect the edge?

Flat smooth glass is fairly easy to clean. Kiln carved glass is a bit harder to clean. Anything resembling tile will be even more difficult to clean.

Annah James · Post by **Annah James** » Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:42 pm

Bert:
Thanks for your input! I have the room to lay these panels out for the time it takes to cure. My understanding is that the HXTAL is not a UV cure. It just takes time. My project will not be viewed from the back - it will be back-lit, so clarity is of the utmost importance. That's why the HXTAL sounded right to me. The folks who sell it talked about it having a texture like Karo syrup - that it could be applied with a palette knife after I do the surface cleaning...I don't know what you mean when you talk about it coming out of the hole...
I will check out the other glues, too. Thanks for the tips.
Annah

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