Is Drackenfeld still around?

[Buttercup]

Am I right in thinking that Drackenfeld is no longer around? I am just using up the last of my Drackenfeld bistre brown E402 and when I bought a new lot of bistre brown I see it is Reusche 1110 and is described as Bistre Brown Glass enamel. I can't test it without opening the hermetically-sealed package and wonder if anyone can tell me if it will behave the same, look the same and fire at the same temp as the E 402, please? According to the package it fires at 1200-1250 F which seems high for enamel. It's so expensive that I don't want to own it if it's not what I want.

Here is one image I found for it. I've seen other images that are more the brown I am hoping for.

It seems that 1110 is a Hancock formula and is more black than brown.

In my kiln the Drackenfeld E402 fires at 1085F. That could simply be what the thermocouple is telling the controller that the temperature is but that is what works in my kiln. That said, I've always thought of it as a stainer.

Would appreciate any guidance. Jen.

[Bert Weiss]

I have no clue who is supplying Reusche with their bistre brown. Drakenfeld merged with Deguza, became Cerdec, then DMC2, and is now owned by Ferro. Ferro recently traded divisions with Hereaus. Hereaus got the precious metals products, and Ferro got the vitreous colors.

[Buttercup]

Thanks Bert. It seems from the ad I found that Reusche's Bistre Brown 1110 is "Hancock Brown #7." I'm curious to know how the colour compares to the Drackenfeld bistre Brown. It looks really black in the ad I copied yet other colour charts showed it to be more brown.

I guess I'll have to open the packet and try it. I was hoping someone would know the answer. Thanks again, Bert.

[Tom Fuhrman]

I still have some very old Drakenfeld stock that I would like to sell if anyone is interested. I have the following 22-164 pink, 23-034 yellow, 76-191 green, 66335 brown specks 80/140mesh, 29-498 tan, 25-478 green, 27-3359 transparent blue, 22-429 pink. I have had these for at least 30 years and don't know how old they were when I got them but I do know this stuff never goes bad. I have anywhere from 1/2lb.-1lb. of each. price would be very reasonable. contact me if you're interested. 865-481-0596 fuhrman@heartoftn.net

[Bert Weiss]

I was surprised to hear you say that bistre brown was a Drakenfeld product. I know that Reusche did use many Drakenfeld colors, but I always thought the stainers colors, bistre brown, stencil black, etc were British made, by Hancock.

At some point, I switched from Reusche to buying direct from Drakenfeld, and used the colors Tom is talking about. They were called versacolor, and came in several different temperature ranges using the same 15 colors. I used what they called the bending series, which fire in around 1250 - 1300ºF. There were some others that fire in around 1050ºF, for glassware.

The Germans made much better colors that are ground finer and are easier to mix. After the mergers, Drakenfeld products were made better. They have merged various series, so now they all have different names and numbers. Meanwhile in the USA, many of the same guys that worked at the Drakenfeld factory are still working for Ferro. These guys really knew their stuff 20 years ago, so now they are really in the know.

[Buttercup]

Bert, I was just going by the label on the Bistre Brown container: E402, which Albin listed in his book, in Plate 1, as Drackenfeld. Perhaps way back when I got it Drackenfeld sourced it from Hancock?

The example I found on-line, showed at the top of this thread, is a product sold by Reuche and bears the number of the Reusche Bistre brown I just purchased, 1110. As noted in that example it is indeed made by Hancock. I was hoping someone who has used both the E402 and the 1110 could tell me if they are one and the same. As mentioned, I don't want to open the packet if it is as black as the example shown above.

The colour I'm hoping for is one that is similar to the paint I used for the partly-finished pelican (E402). It's mixed with tracing black in that painting. By itself it's much lighter. Jen

[Bert Weiss]

Reusche is a reseller. Drakenfeld was a primary manufacturer. I know nothing about Hancock. Albin could have been mistaken saying it was Drakenfeld? Don't I wish I could ask him!

[Peter Angel]

Jen contact this company. They have a huge range of glass stainer and related products.

http://peliglass.eu/brandschilderglasverf/

[Don Burt]

I see Drackenfeld E402 Bistre brown in a decades old Reusche catalog I have: Catalog #14. I have an older catalog than that, #10, that does not mention Drackenfeld colors.

I took pictures of a couple pages and posted them here: http://www.burtglass.com/Reusche_Catalogsin PDF form. You can download from there. But the files are several MB apiece so it will take awhile. One page I copied from #14 lists the E402 Drackenfeld.

Erik Wagg, the technical guy at Reusche, used to work at Drackenfeld. He answers email if you want to ask him a question. ewagg@reuscheco.com. He probably has a sample of the old E402 and could compare it for you to 1110. That's part of what his role is there if I understand it correctly. Matching colors to applications for people.

Coincidentally, I have asked him in the past if there was a lower firing equivalent to the Hancock's Bistre Brown. He said no. I asked if I could flux it down to a low-fire, and he explained that the high-fire frit still wouldn't melt, and it would just be stuck there by the low-fire frit. Not optimal.

At any rate, the E402 from Drackenfeld isn't listed as a low fire in the #14 catalog anyway. The Hancock's definitely is not. I use 1110 a lot. It's a little gritty compared to some paint, and doesn't gloss easily. Nice color though for natural tone.

Jen, I'd be curious to see the effect on your E402 paint in your kiln if you actually took it up to 1250, or better yet, used a .022 witness cone and looked at the result.

[Buttercup]

Bert, I'd like to be able to ask Albin a few questions, too. He left us far too early.

Peter, thank you for the link to that great site. I look forward to taking a closer look at their products. They don't have anything called bistre brown but there is a 'Chocolate' that looks close.

Don, thank you for taking the trouble to do that with the old catalogue, and thanks for the contact, Erik Wagg at Reusche. I've emailed him and look forward to a response. I'll post any relevant info here.

What temp are you firing the 1110 at, please, Don? The packet says 1200-1250F. As noted, I'm not sure if my thermocouple is registering accurately. All I know is that in my kiln, with the controller registering 1085 and possibly lower, there is a fine gloss on the bistre brown, E402, and on another sample I made with tracing black, probably Drackenfeld E401. I have some Reusche tracing black which I haven't used yet as I still have the other. I haven't fired the kiln since the firing disaster described in the GB4 thread I started. The controller has been unplugged for quite a while so I'll try reprogramming it and fire a sample rather than another sacrificial pelican. (Digitry didn't answer my email about cancelling the program.)

The remaining E402 I have is already mixed and I hope to have enough for two more pelicans so I don't have enough for a sample fired at 1250, outside the range I know works. Not much point I suppose if E402 is not available now. I should do that with the 1110 if I end up opening it which I probably will. I get your point about firing with a witness cone. Good idea, and I'm sure that whatever it shows will confuse me.

Does grinding the 1110 for longer make it finer? My muller doesn't seem to have made the trip or is still awaiting unpacking so I'm using a palette knife.

Thanks again for the helpful responses. Jen

[Bert Weiss]

When I learned (from Albin) to mix the stainers colors, it took a whole 10 minutes with a muller or my large palette knife (professional grade cake spreader). Today, I use Ferro Sunshine series colors and it takes me just a couple of minutes mixing. The difference is that the Ferro colors are milled much finer. They learned to do the fine milling from the Germans. Which is to say that the old Drakenfeld and Reusche colors weren't as finely ground.

[Buttercup]

I don't mind letting my mind wander while I mix paint, just so long as it can be made smooth eventually. The Sunshine series are on my 'to do' list. I've read lots of good stuff about them. Nice to know they can be ground quickly when necessary. I acquired a lot of paints I have yet to try when I bought a small kiln. Not enough hours in the day and too many spent fretting over the controller.

Good news is small blasting cabinet is now functional, so I don't have to climb into full regalia and go into the booth for a two-minute blast.

[Don Burt]

Don't take my 'Gritty' comment as a dis towards 1110. Its not really gritty. Its just a little grainier than some of the colors. My guess is that its one of the two most popular glass stainers colors. I mix it with a palette knife. I don't mix it endlessly. It will go through my airbrush OK. Its not like there are chunks of stuff in it. 1110 is a good paint that will make your pelicans proud.

I got some .022 and .021 ceramicist's witness cones and little holders for them. I did tests with them when I replaced my kiln elements recently. I placed them around my kiln to verify evenivity and reasonableness of my thermocouple and digital controller. You could spend a lot of time doing that and in the end, only know that your kiln's heat work characteristics are similar to the cone temp chart test kiln. But I guess I wanted to know that. And it does validate evenivity.

[Buttercup]

Thanks for clarifying that, Don. Is the colour what i'm hoping for? I can't actually feel any pebbles in the package so will get brave and open it. As for the witness cones..... the name sounds a bit Spanish Inquisitionish.....pointy hats? ( It's late here in the Antipodes, the imagination runs amok). Jen

[Don Burt]

I fire glass stainers color 350Fdph to 1250F with a 10 minute hold in my clamshell kiln. I'm arbitrary and not at all scientific about that choice. Looks OK to me.

There's a photo of 1110 on this page, next to a photo of Resuche Series 5 non-leaded that includes their Bistre Brown. The series 5 is considerably warmer. I'm not sure that difference would be fondly accepted by the people I know who use 1110 for shading fleshtones. But its still in the same general color range.

http://www.burtglass.com/enamel_samples.html

But seriously, its time to get over your E402. It was a good friend but it wasn't meant to be a lasting relationship. Open the 1110, paint some on two pieces of glass. Fire one to the low range, one to the high range, and observe and recalibrate ramp and hold . Then paint something amazing.

[Buttercup]

Thanks for the link, Don. Will be opening the 1110 and will try the two different temps as you suggest. Erik directed me to Reusche DE 402. That looks like it, too. Thanks again, Jen

[Don Burt]

I never noticed DE402 in the catalog before. I'll be darned.

[Buttercup]

[quote="Don Burt"]I fire glass stainers color 350Fdph to 1250F with a 10 minute hold in my clamshell kiln. I'm arbitrary and not at all scientific about that choice. Looks OK to me.

Don, are you just switching the kiln off after the 10 minute hold and letting it cool naturally to room temp? Jen

[Don Burt]

for single layer stained glass yes. If more, then I concoct an annealing schedule.

[Buttercup]

Thanks, Don. That's all I do. Has worked most of the time when I've said the right incantations. Jen