WarmGlass.com

Posted: **Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:34 pm**

Howdy..

I need to ship a 2' x 4' flat piece of fused glass across the country. Have run into some tragic situations w/ a naive UPS guy with shipping this size. He packaged incorrectly.

Have worked another UPS man with more luck, but this is bigger and flat, and I have concerns. He says he will double box with enough packaging to buffer, and ship by truck, but I also hear that I should crate large glass in wood, then truck- very costly and the client is not going to cover the extra $.

Any experience with best way to go?

Much thanks!!

Bonnie

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:21 am**

UPS is guaranteed to put the box on a conveyer belt where it will drop off at least a couple of feet. If this worries you, the answer is to ship motor freight. I use Freightquote.com for shipping. They give me 10 different quotes that have various cost, time, and insurance options. If the piece is relatively light, you don't need a liftgate delivery. It does cost more to ship to a residence relative to a business with a loading dock. I usually crate large heavy pieces with a fork liftable crate. You have to call freightquote to find out the classifications to get the right rate.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:40 am**

thanks, Bert.

UPS will put on a truck if it is over-sized, which we will do. But my trust level is not 100%.

Freightquote does not box. I am looking for a company that will do both.

I assume you crate it yourself.. can you provide advice on how to do that? This is a rectangular, 2' x 4' piece by 1/4".

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:55 pm**

Build a crate similar to those used by Spectrum,Bullseye and the other glass companies, but not as thick. line it with foam on all sides and then attach the crate to a pallet with vertical bracing, just like when you receive large sheets of glass form your glass suppliers. I've gotten 100's of 2X4 sheets this way and larger and very rarely have had any breakage when shipped by regular motor freight. some use excelsior and lots of paper for cushioning in the crates as well. Shipping costs are getting to be as much as the pieces in many instances anymore.
I've had some where it proved cheaper to deliver it. I've rented cars for 4 days @ a total of $70, Enterprise specials, and then driven pieces over 500 miles and sometimes several thousand to get it there in one piece. The rental cars got better mileage than mine and saved the wear and tear on my vehicle. I also didn't have to spend as much time on building a fancy crate and slept at night because I was in control.
what UPS normally charges to package anything well enough for them to insure it is astronomical in my estimation, but I have used them in a few situations and had good luck.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:12 pm**

This is not an extremely costly piece, so the trip (although I would love to visit Boston!) would not be worth it.

Thanks for all the packaging info. I just heard back from the client, who said to take our chances w/ UPS. I will be in the room when he boxes it, I assure you!

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:26 pm**

I build a crate using 7/16" strand board and 2 x 6's. I use building insulation, or foam, for padding. The glass will sit with the 24" edge vertical. Support the glass only at the quarter points using strips of homosote for padding. I either screw the crate to a palette and then brace it, or palletize and triangulate the crate, itself.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:36 pm**

The cost of crating and shipping must be included as part of the commission fee.

My partner and I built three crates, out of baltic birch plywood, when I had to ship 9, 24" x 48" fused glass panels across the country. We rented a Ford Excursion, and the size of the crates was determined by what we could fit in the giant SUV. If I were shipping by freight, I would have made the crates a bit larger to accommodate thicker foam and plywood. However, for you, one of these crates would be perfect for one panel.

The crates are 54" x 28" x 6.5" and each crate held three panels. There are two pieces of 1/8" plywood in each crate, to go between the glass panels. I used Styrofoam (polystyrene) next to the layers of wood and soft foam next to the glass. There was a layer of polystyrene covered by soft foam on the floor of the crates. I used 1/2" and 1" thick firm foam from Foam N' More, Inc. (foamforyou.com) next to the glass. I also made two 2" wide nylon straps for each piece of glass, to put the glass panels into the crates and then to remove them. (I used the LWP2 (Lightweight Polypropylene 2 Inch) from http://www.strapworks.com). The crates have circular cut outs to act as handles, but we wore gloves when carrying the crates.

You are welcome to borrow one of my crates, but I would have to ship it to you. Is your glass being delivered to Boston? If so, it should be easy for me to get it back.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:50 pm**

This is all so helpful.. I am making copious notes..

one more concern.. the glass is only 1/4" thick, slightly less in some areas. I am concerned that it is not thick enough for shipping, and am considering fusing again with added glass for more strength-- which will be difficult and may compromise the art..but the size may justify it.

thoughts?

Michele- thanks for the offer- your box is much larger than I need.. we may build it here.

Posted: **Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:18 pm**

I'm curious to see what UPS charges. gas from WI mto Boston should be about $105.00each way. That's $210.00 car renta unless you have access to a car that gets at least 30mpg. Time for a nice road tripto Boston. If the piece isn't worth enough to warrant that cost then just forget it and sell it closer to home. If customer won't pay that for shipping then they don't want it very badly. reality can be discouraging at times. PS: jewelry is a ot easier to sell and ship.

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:39 am**

hotel/motels/food will eat up the rest! .. and time off from work and parenting. sorry to say, it is not in the cards.

If I use UPS, it will be $320 for boxing, shipping and insurance. It is going in an over-sized (double) box, which dictates that it go by truck. I believe it still passes through alot of hands, however. The client will pay for this. But if I went a more expensive way..i.e. wood crate and delivered to her door in one tuck, it would be about $650.

I am still considering building a box as per the advice on the previous posts.

Glass questions:

is 1/4" too thin for a 2' x 4' ?
does the glass become more 'brittle ' on a 3rd firing?
is annealed glass more brittle than blown? (a shipper said he heard that)

thank you

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:17 am**

Bonnie Rubinstein wrote:hotel/motels/food will eat up the rest! .. and time off from work and parenting. sorry to say, it is not in the cards.

If I use UPS, it will be $320 for boxing, shipping and insurance. It is going in an over-sized (double) box, which dictates that it go by truck. I believe it still passes through alot of hands, however. The client will pay for this. But if I went a more expensive way..i.e. wood crate and delivered to her door in one tuck, it would be about $650.

I am still considering building a box as per the advice on the previous posts.

Glass questions:

is 1/4" too thin for a 2' x 4' ?
does the glass become more 'brittle ' on a 3rd firing?
is annealed glass more brittle than blown? (a shipper said he heard that)

thank you

Glass reflects the stress level after it's latest anneal. Flat glass is easier to break than bent glass. 6mm glass should be sufficiently strong to survive, note that many old large storefronts were 6mm glass and did fine.

You don't want to deal with a UPS claim. Their knee jerk reaction is to deny your claim. Then you appeal and it slogs out for several months. Eventually they pay. My experience with this was after using a storefront shipper to pack and ship. Glass arrived at destination cracked. It was shipped back to the shipper. I never saw it again, but was told that the description upon arrival back at the shipper was "pureed". I eventually got paid, but lost the gallery that sold the work. Since then, I use motor freight for anything I think doesn't want to drop 2' off of a conveyor belt. Freightquote has been good to work with. I have never had to make a claim with a motor freight company. One thing I do look out for though is the maximum amount for an insurance claim. This varies from carrier to carrier. Often the lowest cost has a low limit. Paying just a little more for shipping can be well worth it, for an expensive piece.

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:19 am**

Bert Weiss wrote:
Bonnie Rubinstein wrote:hotel/motels/food will eat up the rest! .. and time off from work and parenting. sorry to say, it is not in the cards.

If I use UPS, it will be $320 for boxing, shipping and insurance. It is going in an over-sized (double) box, which dictates that it go by truck. I believe it still passes through alot of hands, however. The client will pay for this. But if I went a more expensive way..i.e. wood crate and delivered to her door in one tuck, it would be about $650.

I am still considering building a box as per the advice on the previous posts.

Glass questions:

is 1/4" too thin for a 2' x 4' ?
does the glass become more 'brittle ' on a 3rd firing?
is annealed glass more brittle than blown? (a shipper said he heard that)

thank you
Glass reflects the stress level after it's latest anneal. Flat glass is easier to break than bent glass. 6mm glass should be sufficiently strong to survive, note that many old large storefronts were 6mm glass and did fine.

You don't want to deal with a UPS claim. Their knee jerk reaction is to deny your claim. Then you appeal and it slogs out for several months. Eventually they pay. My experience with this was after using a storefront shipper to pack and ship. I specified expanding foam, they used peanuts. Glass arrived at destination cracked. It was shipped back to the shipper. I never saw it again, but was told that the description upon arrival back at the shipper was "pureed". I eventually got paid, but lost the gallery that sold the work. Since then, I use motor freight for anything I think doesn't want to drop 2' off of a conveyor belt. Freightquote has been good to work with. I have never had to make a claim with a motor freight company. One thing I do look out for though is the maximum amount for an insurance claim. This varies from carrier to carrier. Often the lowest cost has a low limit. Paying just a little more for shipping can be well worth it, for an expensive piece.

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:23 am**

[*]Glass reflects the stress level after it's latest anneal. ? please explain

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:38 am**

Bonnie Rubinstein wrote:[*]Glass reflects the stress level after it's latest anneal. ? please explain

Once the glass is heated well above the strain point, all stresses are removed. Then stresses begin to develop as it approaches the anneal range. Annealing resolves these stresses. Cooling at appropriate speed below the strain point avoids adding new stresses that can result in thermal shock while cooling.

The chemical composition of the glasses involved can change as the glass is heated well above the softening point. This will effect the final distribution of stresses caused by COE and viscosity. Bullseye tests their more volatile recipes (warm colors) by firing 3 times to 1500ºF and testing for compatibility each time. This can certainly change compatibility characteristics, as the chemical composition becomes different. Sometimes their samples move in and out of acceptable compatibility. So, yes, glass can be affected by more firings. Warm colors tend to be the most sensitive to this. Bullseye's guarantee is for up to 3 firings to 1500ºF. More firings or hotter firings are certainly possible, but are outside this guarantee. To the best of my knowledge, Spectrum does not test or guarantee anything. Their continuous (24/7/365) process glass line makes a more consistent glass than Bullseye's smaller batch furnaces.

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:00 am**

hmmm.. I am only going up to 1385. But I should give Spectrum a call.

thanks, Bert.

Posted: **Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:19 am**

Bonnie Rubinstein wrote:hmmm.. I am only going up to 1385. But I should give Spectrum a call.

thanks, Bert.

At 1385 there are fewer chemicals being volatilized. Let us know what Spectrum has to say.

Posted: **Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:05 am**

Spectrum said that they do not recommend over 3 firings. I only did 2 on pieces that were issues.

Had another tragic glass day yesterday- please see my post on techniques board.

Posted: **Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:50 pm**

I agree. UPS is unreasonable and way too $$$$. I sell to a gallery in Hawaii. They wanted $1,000 to box & ship 2 pieces (worth to me wholesale about $400). When I balked, their response was that I shouldn't sell to Hawaii!!!

With that said, have you ever bought glass directly from Bullseye (or Spectrum)? BE ships its glass in these amazing boxes - they seem to be about 4x regular thickness - with the glass sandwiched between egg-crate foam and then the edges are bordered with some sort of hard(ish) foam. I called to ask for their box specs but they didn't really answer my questions. At any rate, these are the boxes I use to ship big bowls to Hawaii. BE charges (I think) about $100 for each box, with a $50 rebate if you ship them back...but of course that doesn't make sense for me in Florida. I am wondering if they will just sell me some boxes...hmmm.

I'm not particularly good with saws or wood, so I don't want to be making crates, etc. But dealing with insurance for broken stuff is a nightmare.

The other thing I try to do is to make sure it's in the system as short a time as possible - the more time a handler has the glass, the more chances it has to be broken.

Posted: **Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:25 pm**

I agree about timing- the longer, and more hands are involved in the shipping..the more issues can arise. Re: boxes... The pieces I am sending are longer than the boxes I have gotten from the glass manuf.

If I do crate it myself, the shipper most probably won't insure. So, I would have to find a reliable crater and shipper all in one. And that is very pricey.

Posted: **Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:21 am**

Those are really big, delicate panels to ship. Please post again as to how you did it. Four feet long, two feet tall and only 1/4 inch thick and fired at less than 1385 degrees shipped flat doesn't sound possible to arrive in one piece.

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