Fractures appeared! - WarmGlass.com

Fractures appeared!

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Bonnie Rubinstein
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 9:04 pm
Location: River Falls, WI

Fractures appeared!

Postby Bonnie Rubinstein » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:21 pm

Hi Fusers,
Sad day. I made a beautiful 41' X 25" flat mural: Wissmach 5mm base, and 1-2 layers of Oceanside 96 glasses on top. Slow rise and 6 hours anneal. I've done this size many times, but always with just Spectrum/Oceanside.
I did grind down the corners a touch after fusing (diamond bit and water). But never had a problem grinding. Next day- I noticed fractures appeared on one side near one edge and corner. Out of the blue!
I was sad, and re-fused over 3 days, and the glass cured beautifully..(or so i thought).
3 days later, fractures started popping up. They are not cracks that go all the way through the glass. Internal only. But I DO NOT trust them at all. They are growing in number and size as we speak, (seriously).

Is there a potential compatibility issue between Wissmach and Oceanside that anyone has heard about?

I can not figure this one out. I can only assume I need to use only Oceanside, as I have always done.
Thanks for your input!
Bonnie :(
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Bonnie Rubinstein

Brad Walker
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Re: Fractures appeared!

Postby Brad Walker » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:29 pm

Bonnie Rubinstein wrote:Is there a potential compatibility issue between Wissmach and Oceanside that anyone has heard about?


Yes, there is. There's also potential incompatibility between Oceanside and the old Spectrum System 96. And with Youghigheny Y96. And with any other COE96 glass you can think of.

There's more to compatibility than coefficient of expansion.

Bonnie Rubinstein
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 9:04 pm
Location: River Falls, WI

Re: Fractures appeared!

Postby Bonnie Rubinstein » Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:46 pm

Wow.
If that is true, I am in huge trouble. When I heard Spectrum was closing, I bought quite a bit of it, not knowing Oceanside would continue the manufacturing.
Why would Spectrum and Oceanside not be compatible? I assumed they were using all the same technology and formulas.

And Brad, can you elaborate on 'more to it than coefficient compatibility? That is really disconcerting!

(and The distributors I have spoken with seem to say the Wissmach and Oceanside are compatible) How off are they!
Bonnie Rubinstein

Brad Walker
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Re: Fractures appeared!

Postby Brad Walker » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:41 pm

Bonnie Rubinstein wrote:Why would Spectrum and Oceanside not be compatible? I assumed they were using all the same technology and formulas.


Similar (not necessarily same) technology and formulas, but different manufacturing facilities, different countries, different levels of experience. It's really hard to make consistently compatible glass. Each manufacturer tests vs the product they're making, but almost no one tests vs products from other manufacturers (past or present).

can you elaborate on 'more to it than coefficient compatibility? That is really disconcerting!


In most cases, the laboratory test for measuring coefficient of expansion measures the difference in expansion between room temperature and 300C/572F. That's fine, EXCEPT that we fuse glass at a much higher temperature, one well out of the range of that measurement. The expansion above 300C/572F is at least as important (if not more important) than the expansion below that temperature. Expansion at higher temperatures can be several times greater than expansion at lower ones. And, to make things more difficult, it's not necessarily a linear relationship.

Add to that the fact that another factor -- viscosity, or the runniness of a glass at a particular temperature -- is also important in making compatible glass. It's possible to have two glasses with the same COE but different viscosities be incompatible. The glass manufacturer needs to take viscosity into account; it's the combination of the two factors that matters.

As an example, Bullseye clear 1101 has a COE of 91, while their white 0113 (which has a very different viscosity) has a COE of 88. Yet they're compatible because the manufacturer has taken steps to make sure they work together at FUSING temperatures, not in the range of the COE test.

The distributors I have spoken with seem to say the Wissmach and Oceanside are compatible)


Your experience proves that that's not always true.

As a general rule, I like to find a manufacturer I trust and depend on them to make sure the glass is compatible. If I use glass from another manufacturer, I always test first to make sure the two glasses are truly compatible.

Bonnie Rubinstein
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 9:04 pm
Location: River Falls, WI

Re: Fractures appeared!

Postby Bonnie Rubinstein » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:21 am

Thank you for all that valuable( and sobering) info., Brad.
I would like to think I am working with a manufacturer I can rely on. But I can’t get a person to even talk with at Oceanside. I had good communication with Spectrum.

Which leaves a lot of us out in the cold re: technical help, and I need to stay with COE 96 at this point.
Sigh.
Bonnie Rubinstein

Bonnie Rubinstein
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 9:04 pm
Location: River Falls, WI

Re: Fractures appeared!

Postby Bonnie Rubinstein » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:11 am

I assume the fractures will become real cracks (?) and not stay internal in the glass? I haven't experienced this before...
Bonnie Rubinstein

Brad Walker
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Re: Fractures appeared!

Postby Brad Walker » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:15 am

Over time, that usually happens.

I have deliberately fused Bullseye and Spectrum S96 glass together and watched the piece fall apart over time. First, you see nothing, then a crack appears, then it spreads, and eventually the piece breaks. This can take years and years, or it can happen overnight, depends on how bad the incompatibility is.

Bonnie Rubinstein
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 9:04 pm
Location: River Falls, WI

Re: Fractures appeared!

Postby Bonnie Rubinstein » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:57 am

Thanks, Brad.

Shame on companies that have misleading info.

Starting my big project over now... :(
Bonnie Rubinstein

Kevin Midgley
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Location: Tofino, British Columbia, Canada

Re: Fractures appeared!

Postby Kevin Midgley » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:04 pm

It will be cheaper in the long run to cut your losses and dump the 96 and just switch to Bullseye. Every time you make something and it breaks months later is a financial disaster.

Bonnie Rubinstein
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 9:04 pm
Location: River Falls, WI

Re: Fractures appeared!

Postby Bonnie Rubinstein » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:28 pm

I follow strict schedules that I have used for 20 + years, successfully (after a few rough lessons early on). I am not concerned right now if I stick with Oceanside. My glass inventory is too large to not use.

And, then there is the learning curve for Bullseye. (hard to think about now that I am so absorbed into Oceanside/Spectrum)

It was the Wissmach + Oceanside that created the problem.

But thanks!
Bonnie Rubinstein

Lynn Perry
Posts: 126
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2003 5:27 pm
Location: East Tennessee

Re: Fractures appeared!

Postby Lynn Perry » Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:58 am

I just looked at your website, Bonnie. Your work is outstanding! As long as you can make the glass work, I wouldn't change a thing.
Lynn Perry

Bonnie Rubinstein
Posts: 189
Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 9:04 pm
Location: River Falls, WI

Re: Fractures appeared!

Postby Bonnie Rubinstein » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:15 am

Thank you, Lynn!

Yes, alot of years of trials and failures to get consistent positive outcomes. That is why changing gears would be so hard.

Glass is amazing when it works! (all of us fusers know this).
Bonnie Rubinstein


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