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Criticism

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The Hobbyist
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Postby The Hobbyist » Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:28 pm

I agree with Bert on the odd number.

I always use an odd number for another reason. If there is the slightest variation or lack of perfect symmetry between the pieces your eye will notice it more easily with an even number of pieces. With an odd number minor errors will go unnoticed. You'll notice hub caps/wheels always have an odd number too. But that's to avoid harmonic vibrations I believe.

However, I disagree about the rest. I'm a Mathman and I love the precision and order in the piece. The use of randomness with the gold works well. How do you achieve that?

My suggestion for the top piece would be to cover it in clear coarse frit and then layer that with light colored powder, maybe the same as the ovals. This should produce a "veil" through which the lower layers are seen.

Jim
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. " Steven Weinberg

Brock
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Postby Brock » Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:37 pm

Jim Wolverton wrote:I agree with Bert on the odd number.

I always use an odd number for another reason. If there is the slightest variation or lack of perfect symmetry between the pieces your eye will notice it more easily with an even number of pieces. With an odd number minor errors will go unnoticed. You'll notice hub caps/wheels always have an odd number too. But that's to avoid harmonic vibrations I believe.

However, I disagree about the rest. I'm a Mathman and I love the precision and order in the piece. The use of randomness with the gold works well. How do you achieve that?

My suggestion for the top piece would be to cover it in clear coarse frit and then layer that with light colored powder, maybe the same as the ovals. This should produce a "veil" through which the lower layers are seen.

Jim


Bert and Jim, the odd number thing has some validity in a composition, but I don't worry about it in these formal pieces. I have actually put in a lack of perfect symmetry by hand cutting, and deliberately wandering a bit, the long sides of each radial pie-shaped piece.

The Gold foil is torn, or shredded with tweezers and a metal point, or razor knife, then fitted together like a jigsaw puzzle. The top piece is already cut and blasted Jim, but your idea is interesting. Brock
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .

Jackie Beckman
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Postby Jackie Beckman » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:05 pm

Wow - what a great thread. I've been out of town a couple days so I haven't had a chance to catch up on everything yet, but I like this one. I agree with Brock that not every single image posted is praise-worthy. Up until now, my way of dealing with that was to just not say anything unless the image grabbed me for some reason. Many images have - others haven't. As I briefly skimmed through the thread (I'll read it better later) the thoughts that popped into my mind would be written by someone else in the next post anyway, so I don't have anything to add yet until I have a chance to read through it better.

But, as for your particular image, I'm confused about something, Brock. If you are covering all the sections with gold as fully as the completed ones, then will any irid show through? I don't see any left around the scalloped edge to make the three color shift border you mention. (black, one irid, then double irid layers) I'm sure it must be there - after all, this is a concept I never fully grasped anyway. I like the concept, but it's just a 50-50 shot for me to get it right, so I don't use it.

As for the actual design, I personally am not a huge fan of exact precision because there is something "harsh" about it to me. However, I know that there are many, many people who are much more comfortable with symmetry and hard edges, and geometry, so that's just personal taste.

But given that taste, I would do something to soften the edge of the gold design where it meets the black - something to make it more subtle, yet still clearly visable. Your mosaic silver idea may work out just fine to do that. Another option would be filling in with little silver horizontal pinstripes in the area of the black lines. They might look good against the randomness of your gold placement. Perhaps placed more closely together near the center, and gradually further apart as you near the edge. Then, if it were me, which it's not, I would then add random little silver strips around the edge area that look as though they randomly "floated out" of those spaces where they are pinstripes.

Naturally, this changes the entire "feel" of the piece though. I just pretended the assignment was that I was given the piece in it's current state of "doneness" and had to figure out what would I do to finish it.

Then the next one in the series would have a only one or maybe two of the "spoke" parts filled with gold as you have them, but then each subsequent one getting less and less full, so that the last section only had a little tiny bit of gold filled in.

Aren't you glad you asked - I know that's probably not what you had in mind. :lol:

Jackie

Barbara Muth
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Postby Barbara Muth » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:13 pm

This has been an interesting thread to read. I find it awkward looking at work that could benefit from critique on design and execution when it is clearly posted in the "put it on the fridge" vein. I find myself wanting to email them and make suggestions, but they aren't asking for that. Because I find myself in this middle place and not always too sure of what I am doing, I seldom post my work on this board. I don't want others to think I am posting for praise. Nor am I always comfortable with where I am. I look at the work others are posting and bewail where I am. I digress. I would welcome a critique forum and would make an effort to post my works in progress (and finished work) for critique. Because ultimately, when I have had the opportunity to have my work critiqued, it has been very very helpful.


Brock, I like where you are going with this piece. The organic feel of the gold on the piece is an interesting progression in your work. Just as precise in execution as the geometric foils, much more fluid in feeling.

Is it a trick of the light/camera, or are the irid ovals in the one half really pink? Or are they mica?

Every time I look at the piece, my eye travels around and stops at the very top. The transition there between much irid, some gold, to the next "slice" over that is all gold, stops my eye from continuing around. Is that your intent? (Maybe it's just me)

I suspect that there will be a lot more for me to see in this piece, once the top is fused on. I can imagine spending plenty of time seeing images in the foils, just like gazing at the clouds in the sky. This could really capture my imagination!

Barbara
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The Hobbyist
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Postby The Hobbyist » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:44 pm

Since Brock has started this rock rolling I'll help it along. But not here since this thread is really about Brock's initial question and I think there is more discussion to follow. Also, Brock's work-in-progress serves as a good example for that discussion. Another one would clutter it up.

I'll post mine in the photos forum since that will have to serve until we get a Critic Corner. (That's a neat name, who was the person that suggested it?)

Jackie; I had the same feeling when I looked at Brock piece. I thought it was the final form until I saw the gold and tools.

I would be afraid to post a work-in-progress for fear that all the comments would addle my poor brain and leave me thoroughly confused. (Which I seem to be too often.) Once I start I like to finish the piece since I usually had some goal in mind. Whether it works and where to go with it is what I seek to learn.

I'm off to the (temporary?) Critics Corner..............................Jim
"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. " Steven Weinberg

Steve Immerman
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Postby Steve Immerman » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:52 pm

I really like what I see so far, and what you are planning. I like the precision and symmetry of the radial design, coupled with the randomness of the gold foil. At first I thought I'd like the peacock ovals to be randomly placed, but as I look at it I agree they should be symmetrical.

I like the fact that there will be parts that are black, and I hope you don't lose that when you add the last layer of metals. I like the inherent randomness of the rainbow irid. I'm impressed by the restraint shown by only having small amounts of the irid in the triangles peek through between the cracks in the gold.

I will be impressed if the top layer of sandblasted clear "registers" exactly right with the base pattern.

Suggestions: Don't make it too busy with the added metals in the last steps. The eye needs someplace to rest.

Is this going to be a footed bowl?

I like it very much - but then I guess I would, since our pieces are often similar in that they have recognizable geometric outlines, somewhat symmetical designs, complexity, and some aspect of randomness.

Bravo!

Steve

Jackie Beckman
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Postby Jackie Beckman » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:54 pm

Steve Immerman wrote:I really like what I see so far, and what you are planning. I like the precision and symmetry of the radial design, coupled with the randomness of the gold foil. At first I thought I'd like the peacock ovals to be randomly placed, but as I look at it I agree they should be symmetrical.

I like the fact that there will be parts that are black, and I hope you don't lose that when you add the last layer of metals. I like the inherent randomness of the rainbow irid. I'm impressed by the restraint shown by only having small amounts of the irid in the triangles peek through between the cracks in the gold.

I will be impressed if the top layer of sandblasted clear "registers" exactly right with the base pattern.

Suggestions: Don't make it too busy with the added metals in the last steps. The eye needs someplace to rest.

Is this going to be a footed bowl?

I like it very much - but then I guess I would, since our pieces are often similar in that they have recognizable geometric outlines, somewhat symmetical designs, complexity, and some aspect of randomness.

Bravo!

Steve


You're sucking up to the teacher again Steve - why don't you just bring him a big, shiney apple. :wink:

Steve Immerman
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Postby Steve Immerman » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:04 pm

Jackie Beckman wrote:You're sucking up to the teacher again Steve - why don't you just bring him a big, shiney apple. :wink:


Oh. OK.

Brock,

Disregard what I said above. It's just another blob.

Steve


There. Feel better Jackie?

Jackie Beckman
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Postby Jackie Beckman » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:34 pm

Steve Immerman wrote:
Jackie Beckman wrote:You're sucking up to the teacher again Steve - why don't you just bring him a big, shiney apple. :wink:


Oh. OK.

Brock,

Disregard what I said above. It's just another blob.

Steve


There. Feel better Jackie?



Hmmm . . . You know what Steve, that's just no good coming from you. I think you better go back to the first comment; it sounded so much more like you. Maybe you could just suggest he take two asprin and call you in the morning?

Rebecca M.
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Postby Rebecca M. » Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:04 pm

I've got no business giving a critique, but I have a couple comments. I very much like the way the gold plays with the blue/purple irid especially on the unfinished portions. There is some wonderful negative space designs there and I think the way that offsets the formalness of the design is a wonderful effect. As far as the silver mosaic on the radii go, I don't know. I might like to see how plain black in those areas ground the piece. Whatever happens I'm sure it will be magnificent.

I learn so much from looking at the photos. Especially ones like this. If I'd seen this piece all finished I would have no clue as to what was involved. For instance the gold and irid. I thought it was not at all possible to have metal against irid work, so it would have been something I'd never try. Not that I'd have the zen-like concentration to do so anyway, but it's good to know.
I'm guilty of posting my awkward newbie stuff, but usually it's because I'm so happy that something worked without breaking, or multiple firings just to fix mistakes, or something-or-other. I know it's not good stuff, but at the moment it's wonderful (to me). I really have no other feedback and the boys here don't care if it doesn't have wheels or float. :wink:
If I even thought for a second that I should compare my plebe stuff to any of the exquisite work thats posted here I'd probably pack it in. I'm just learning and it's got to be enough for now. Hopefully I'll look back at these things of mine in 6 months, a year or whatever and see how much I've advanced and then continue to.

rodney
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Postby rodney » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:14 am

Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:05 am Post subject:

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i remember my first art criticism,,i was in the second grade,,,the teacher said that my drawing looked like chicken scratching,,,i knew it didnt and didnt care what she thought,,,,but there are some that do care,,,my opinion is simple, if you dont like something that a professional is making, you can let em have it, but if its by a person that is just starting out, you need to encourage them,,,,and if they are serious they will see later on that the things they were doing in the beginning were pretty bad, but because of the kind words of those they respected, they continued and got better,,,its easy to whack on somebody,,,,but whats the reason for it,,,,one thing about this board, there are people here who have forgotten more than ill ever learn, but "imagination is better that education",,,encourage people and see what happens,,,for all of you who are making those blobs, keep it up, you may make the best blob ever made, and it could be that blob that leads you on to making globs,,,,rodney

Linda Reed
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Postby Linda Reed » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:02 am

And that's the whole point. To be able to critique the beginner stuff at a way to go! level and the intermediate stuff at at a good job, why don't you try blah blah level and the advanced stuff at either a you can do better or oh wow, and what if you tried this ...level... Or an advanced discussion of technique and intent and art and presentation and how the work works to convey the intent...

Because actually, while the beginner will learn from a Brock level critique, sometimes even a Brock level glassie (no dissing intended, Brock) will learn from a beginner critique. Because what people say is always an insight into the psyche of the whole.

And the psyche of the whole is a mystery that I don't think we've managed to solve yet. The final frontier. (Kill me when we figure it out, please) Enter the worlds of The Giver and A Wrinkle In Time. Symmetry has been anthemia to me since 6th grade due to Lois Lowry and Madeline D'Engle. Damn the effects of random reality.

And if someone on my level were to offer innocent suggestions on Brock's piece, I'd say, it would talk to me on a more base level if each of the 'pie' pieces was a little less (or more) done than the next. The evolution thing. Progression, degression. As I've mentioned, I have a phobia for symmetry. I wouldn't have the patience for the well placed non-symmetrical progression thing either though and that is what would speak to me.

ALthough I would be very impressed (as always) with the symmetry thing and the technique and the vision of this piece completed. Just for me, and there are probably lots of 'me' type people out there, symmetry is beautiful, but not something I'd typically buy, because it doesn't speak to my soul.

That's a beauty of our time. So many outlooks, so many intepretations. So many beliefs and manifestions of similar beliefs. What speaks to people's souls, their realities.

Fun stuff to dwell on.
L.
:?

Brock
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Postby Brock » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:16 am

I'm guilty of posting my awkward newbie stuff, but usually it's because I'm so happy that something worked without breaking, or multiple firings just to fix mistakes, or something-or-other. I know it's not good stuff, but at the moment it's wonderful (to me).

Please don't misunderstand me, I have no problem with posting newbie stuff, I just wanted a forum where critical advice, rather than just encouragement, could be given. Brock
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .

Amy on Salt Spring
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Postby Amy on Salt Spring » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:21 am

I'm amazed at the precision and patience required to do a piece like this. I tried working with some silver leaf one time and it drove me crazy (I believe I had many pieces stuck to my hair and permanently adhered to my studio floor when I finally gave up). I realize that it isn't part of the plan but I too like the juxtaposition of the finished sections with the non-finished. Its like construction and deconstruction, and whereas if the piece were finished by completing all the sections it will look beautiful but static (not that that is a bad thing)...having deconstructed parts adds some movement to the piece and the two sort of speak to each other (if that isn't too artsy a way to put it) which I find interesting. That's my two cents. Oh and it has a kind of Celtic symbol feel to me, I don't know why...
Amy

Brock
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Postby Brock » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:21 am

Naturally, this changes the entire "feel" of the piece though. I just pretended the assignment was that I was given the piece in it's current state of "doneness" and had to figure out what would I do to finish it.

That WAS what I wanted. To get other opinions on the next step(s).
That brings up a design point. These pieces are never designed fully, ahead of construction. I know what effects I want to get in the first firing, and serendipity and accidents may inform the next layer.

Jackie, there will be a double border, the blasting on the clear piece comes closer to the rim of the blank. so that will supply the single irid border.
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .

Brock
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Postby Brock » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:25 am

Is it a trick of the light/camera, or are the irid ovals in the one half really pink? Or are they mica?

No mica, Some of those ovals havre been decorated with silver and copper

Every time I look at the piece, my eye travels around and stops at the very top. The transition there between much irid, some gold, to the next "slice" over that is all gold, stops my eye from continuing around. Is that your intent? (Maybe it's just me)

Nope. It's in progress, and all the pie-shaped pieces will be covered pretty solidly in gold.

I suspect that there will be a lot more for me to see in this piece, once the top is fused on. I can imagine spending plenty of time seeing images in the foils, just like gazing at the clouds in the sky. This could really capture my imagination!

Barbara[/quote]
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .

Brock
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Postby Brock » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:29 am

Steve Immerman wrote:I really like what I see so far, and what you are planning. I like the precision and symmetry of the radial design, coupled with the randomness of the gold foil. At first I thought I'd like the peacock ovals to be randomly placed, but as I look at it I agree they should be symmetrical.

I like the fact that there will be parts that are black, and I hope you don't lose that when you add the last layer of metals. I like the inherent randomness of the rainbow irid. I'm impressed by the restraint shown by only having small amounts of the irid in the triangles peek through between the cracks in the gold.

I will be impressed if the top layer of sandblasted clear "registers" exactly right with the base pattern.

It will! I have a system. Both pieces of glass are marked to so that the pattern lines up perfectly.

Suggestions: Don't make it too busy with the added metals in the last steps. The eye needs someplace to rest.

Yes Steve, I'm starting to think so too. I may just do the scalloped border area.

Is this going to be a footed bowl?

Yup.
I like it very much - but then I guess I would, since our pieces are often similar in that they have recognizable geometric outlines, somewhat symmetical designs, complexity, and some aspect of randomness.

Bravo!

Steve
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .

Amy on Salt Spring
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Postby Amy on Salt Spring » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:35 am

Brock wrote:Naturally, this changes the entire "feel" of the piece though. I just pretended the assignment was that I was given the piece in it's current state of "doneness" and had to figure out what would I do to finish it.

That WAS what I wanted. To get other opinions on the next step(s).


Oh--sorry! :oops:
Amy

Jackie Beckman
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Postby Jackie Beckman » Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:29 am

OK Brock - I take back my previous suggestions. I was trying to figure out a way to soften the edges when I said try pinstripes and make them "float out" around the border. Now, keep in mind, all I have to do this with is a red-eye correction tool, and I've never done it before, but I tried it anyway and it takes away the entire look you were going for. It's no longer a formal piece at all. Just thought I'd give it a try, and it doesn't work:

http://dell.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67 ... 4d448b0514

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Postby Brock » Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:37 am

Jackie Beckman wrote:OK Brock - I take back my previous suggestions. I was trying to figure out a way to soften the edges when I said try pinstripes and make them "float out" around the border. Now, keep in mind, all I have to do this with is a red-eye correction tool, and I've never done it before, but I tried it anyway and it takes away the entire look you were going for. It's no longer a formal piece at all. Just thought I'd give it a try, and it doesn't work:

http://dell.shutterfly.com/osi.jsp?i=67 ... 4d448b0514


It's interesting, but it's not me. I think I'm going with Steve's suggestiuon to leave the spacers empty. It will emphasize the gold, and . . .

, , , it's less work! Thanks Steve.
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .


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