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question about fusing -

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barbarak
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question about fusing -

Postby barbarak » Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:21 pm

If this is the dumbest question possible - please laugh me silly and school me up good :oops:
Can you fuse two pieces of compatible glass with a piece of real (not leaf) metal in between?? Like copper? Pewter?

Thanks for your tolerance..... you guys are great!
Barbara

Brock
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Re: question about fusing -

Postby Brock » Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:35 pm

There is an upper limit, and I don't really know what thickness of copper is possible, but that metal is your best bet. As it was explained to me, (he opined, taking no responsibility for the anecdotal theory he's passing on) during the heat up the copper forms a layer of copper oxide on it's surface. This oxide somehow allows the dissimilar COE's to co-exist.

Pewter must have a prertty low melting point, I doubt it would work.

Copper is the best metal for inclusions, but Brass and Bronze have been used, as well as the obvious, Gold, Platinum, Palladium and Silver, the Variegateds, and Aluminum. Once you start dealing with thicknesses above hobby metals, you are on your own.

Trial and error, heavy on the error. Brock
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .

Lynn g
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Location: Clovis, CA

Postby Lynn g » Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:32 pm

Hi!

This is my experience so far with using brass rod. I buy 1/8" solid brass rod at the local welding supply shop, and fuse it between two pieces of Spectrum to make legs? prongs? so the glass pieces can be inserted into a potted plant or garden for decoration. The pieces of rod are about 5" long, and 3/4" to 1" is the portion which is fused between the glass. I hammer it somewhat flat before fusing, to keep it from rolling, and prop the ends that stick out on some little scraps of fiber paper to keep them level so they don't poke up out of the glass.

Schedule: 600/hr to 1000, hold 10 min.
300/hr to 1475, hold 10 min.
AFAP to 960, hold 2 hours

So far this has worked well. The brass comes out of the kiln very dark, but this coating brushes off VERy easily (it wipes off with a rag) and a little steel wool will take it back to a nice brass color.

I tried this with the copper-coated welding rod, the copper coating apparently butned off, leaving just an ugly steel look. Doesn't matter if you're going to stick it in the ground, but I like to insert some dcorative bits of rod on the sides and trim the piece with gold luster, so the look of the brass works better for me.

I would not recvommend this technique with longer pieces of rod; I think if the finished piece were subject to movement such as swaying in the wind, the glass would not be thick enough to prevent breakage. I have not experimented with with anything thicker than 2 layers.
Lynn g
"Patriotism is not enough, I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone." - Dame Edith Cavell

Tim Swann
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Location: San Diego, CA

Postby Tim Swann » Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:25 am

I have had the best results with copper up to .040â€

barbarak
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Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:30 am
Location: Just east of being there.

question about fusing

Postby barbarak » Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:53 am

Thanks so much for all the input. I hadn't thought about Nichrome wire. Do most other metals show oxidation at high temps? I was hoping for a copper 'finish' or shine but will try anything. Is there an easy way to find the melting point of different metals @ varying thicknesses?
Barbara

Tim Swann
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Location: San Diego, CA

Re: question about fusing

Postby Tim Swann » Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:05 am

bar^bar^a wrote:Thanks so much for all the input. I hadn't thought about Nichrome wire. Do most other metals show oxidation at high temps? I was hoping for a copper 'finish' or shine but will try anything. Is there an easy way to find the melting point of different metals @ varying thicknesses?


Fine silver, gold, platinum, and nichrome will stay shiny when fused. The fine silver will react with the oxides in the glass, and the gold can diffuse into the glass and change its color. There wa a thread about fusing with copper and keeping the surface from oxidizing about 2 week ago. I have not tryed what was suggested in the thread. The melting point of the metal does not change with its thickness.

Tim

Brock
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Location: Vancouver, B.C.

Re: question about fusing

Postby Brock » Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:21 am

Tim Swann wrote:
bar^bar^a wrote:Thanks so much for all the input. I hadn't thought about Nichrome wire. Do most other metals show oxidation at high temps? I was hoping for a copper 'finish' or shine but will try anything. Is there an easy way to find the melting point of different metals @ varying thicknesses?


Fine silver, gold, platinum, and nichrome will stay shiny when fused. The fine silver will react with the oxides in the glass, and the gold can diffuse into the glass and change its color. There wa a thread about fusing with copper and keeping the surface from oxidizing about 2 week ago. I have not tryed what was suggested in the thread. The melting point of the metal does not change with its thickness.

Tim


I think the possible effects of using metals, (leaf or foil) together are almost endless, because some of them react with each other, and the absence or presence of oxygen affects some of them. I haven't seen the effect you mention with Gold, Tim, unless you're referring to it burning out?

Once, I had Gold turn red. If I could only duplicate that . . .
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .

Rebecca M.
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Re: question about fusing

Postby Rebecca M. » Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:35 am

bar^bar^a wrote:Thanks so much for all the input. I hadn't thought about Nichrome wire. Do most other metals show oxidation at high temps? I was hoping for a copper 'finish' or shine but will try anything. Is there an easy way to find the melting point of different metals @ varying thicknesses?


Here is a chart for melt temps of metals. http://www.kitco.com/jewelry/meltingpoints.html In the thread that Tim mentioned there were some people using Unique colors clear coat to keep the copper color. Judy Schnabel did some tests and posted results in the photo section as well. There were also recommendations for what copper to use I think.

Tim Swann
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Location: San Diego, CA

Re: question about fusing

Postby Tim Swann » Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:54 pm

Brock wrote:
Tim Swann wrote:
bar^bar^a wrote:Thanks so much for all the input. I hadn't thought about Nichrome wire. Do most other metals show oxidation at high temps? I was hoping for a copper 'finish' or shine but will try anything. Is there an easy way to find the melting point of different metals @ varying thicknesses?


Fine silver, gold, platinum, and nichrome will stay shiny when fused. The fine silver will react with the oxides in the glass, and the gold can diffuse into the glass and change its color. There wa a thread about fusing with copper and keeping the surface from oxidizing about 2 week ago. I have not tryed what was suggested in the thread. The melting point of the metal does not change with its thickness.

Tim


I think the possible effects of using metals, (leaf or foil) together are almost endless, because some of them react with each other, and the absence or presence of oxygen affects some of them. I haven't seen the effect you mention with Gold, Tim, unless you're referring to it burning out?

Once, I had Gold turn red. If I could only duplicate that . . .


Brock,

The burning out of the gold is really a diffusion of the gold into the surrounding glass structure. The glass turning red is the gold forming a crystal structure within the glass giving the ruby color. Getting that color can be a challenge in fusing without holding the glass at a high temperature for longer periods of time than required for normal fusing. I have been able to duplicate obtaining the ruby color and also the next shift to yellow. The yellow is a more saturated (with gold) version of the ruby glass. The yellow and can also be achieved using fine silver, but care needs to be taken or you can shift the color to green very easily. An orange color can be achieved by a layered combination of the ruby and yellow glass.

Tim

Brock
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Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:32 pm
Location: Vancouver, B.C.

Re: question about fusing

Postby Brock » Fri Mar 26, 2004 2:10 pm

Tim Swann wrote:
Brock wrote:
Tim Swann wrote:
bar^bar^a wrote:Thanks so much for all the input. I hadn't thought about Nichrome wire. Do most other metals show oxidation at high temps? I was hoping for a copper 'finish' or shine but will try anything. Is there an easy way to find the melting point of different metals @ varying thicknesses?


Fine silver, gold, platinum, and nichrome will stay shiny when fused. The fine silver will react with the oxides in the glass, and the gold can diffuse into the glass and change its color. There wa a thread about fusing with copper and keeping the surface from oxidizing about 2 week ago. I have not tryed what was suggested in the thread. The melting point of the metal does not change with its thickness.

Tim


I think the possible effects of using metals, (leaf or foil) together are almost endless, because some of them react with each other, and the absence or presence of oxygen affects some of them. I haven't seen the effect you mention with Gold, Tim, unless you're referring to it burning out?

Once, I had Gold turn red. If I could only duplicate that . . .


Brock,

The burning out of the gold is really a diffusion of the gold into the surrounding glass structure. The glass turning red is the gold forming a crystal structure within the glass giving the ruby color. Getting that color can be a challenge in fusing without holding the glass at a high temperature for longer periods of time than required for normal fusing. I have been able to duplicate obtaining the ruby color and also the next shift to yellow. The yellow is a more saturated (with gold) version of the ruby glass. The yellow and can also be achieved using fine silver, but care needs to be taken or you can shift the color to green very easily. An orange color can be achieved by a layered combination of the ruby and yellow glass.

Tim


Yeah, I do a lot of work with Silver, and am pretty used to the effects of it.
Sometimes another firing will change the colours of metals also. I don't usually have the luxury of a high fire in my work, it's more what I would call low fire, I do every process at the lowest possible temp. Brock
My memory is so good, I can't remember the last time I forgot something . . .

PattyJohnson
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Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2003 1:43 am
Location: Wisconsin
Contact:

Postby PattyJohnson » Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:58 am

I made a bowl for a friend using brass ball chain ...not sure what size.... standard I guess....I got it at the hardware store. She has has the piece a little over 2 yrs and so far its fine....she doesn't use it though ..it sits on her shelf.

I plan to try doing a bowl with pressed pennies from my favorite attraction...House on the Rock here in Wisconsin...I might even get brave and use some tokens for there animated machines...although they are much thicker than the pennies...they are gold in color...but I have no clue what kind of metal they are.

take care ..Patty

Tim Swann
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 9:47 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Postby Tim Swann » Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:54 am

Patty,

If you use US pennies they need to be dated before 1982. After 1982 the penny composition was changed to a copper plated zinc blank. The zinc will make a mess when it melts.

Tim

skin_mechanic
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 10:42 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Postby skin_mechanic » Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:06 pm

I did a little experimenting with metal the 1st week that I had my kiln. I've got alotta pieces of metal lying around the garage, mainly aluminum and stainless steel. I got my best results with copper, in sheet form and wire(hammered flat). The aluminum reacted violently with the glass, the thinner pieces completely oxidized, leaving behind a ghost impression of black bubbles. I tried heaver aluminum flashing which held up a little better, but I got some rather large seeds from it. Aluminum screen wire left patterned bubbles. The stainless steel was a joke, the pieces never survived the cool-down(post anealing). Being fanatically obsessed with cars, I'm sure I'll eventually start using small trim parts as inclusions in larger glass pieces. I have some sterling silver jewlery wire(20 gauge) that I have yet to use. To send this thread way OT, I also fused fiberglass mat and cloth with mixed results. The mat piece cracked in several places, but the cloth piece fused beautifully. BTW, all of my experiments thus far have been with float glass, YMMV :)

Judith Andre
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2003 2:38 am
Location: Lincoln, NE

Postby Judith Andre » Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:44 pm

When I was first doing fusing I used copper wire inclusions in a plate that was to be slumped. It cracked on the slump firing. Assuming it was that the glass stretched, the wire didn't. Now I never do wire inclusions in anything that I intend to slump.

Judith
Judith


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