Blast? Etch? Photo? Plot? … I’m so confused.

[Larry Lunsford]

I’d like to make custom, fairly detailed patterns on dichroic, iridized, and mica coated glass. I’m leaning toward using a sand blaster and vinyl masks. Before I do anything too stupid (like reaching for my MasterCard) I’d like to get some feedback from the experts.

So, if you’ll indulge me, I have a few questions …

Near as I can tell, there are two principal methods for creating patterns: sand blasting and acid etching. Are there any other useful methods I should be looking into?

From other posts on this board it seems acid etching of dichroic works fine. Can iridized and mica be acid etched? If so, what are the recommended acids?

Can acid be applied using a silk screen? If so, what combinations of screen material and acid are recommended?

When acid etching with a vinyl mask, do you need special vinyl or can you use any sign vinyl?

There’s a lot of stuff available to allow hobbyists to make their own printed circuit boards (PCB). (A PCB is a piece of fiberglass with copper coating. Unwanted areas of copper are acid etched away to leave copper wires that interconnect electronic parts that get soldered to the PCB.) I would think that PCB techniques would be ideal for dichroic (don’t know about iridized or mica) and much cheaper than the other photo masking systems I have seen recommended for glass. But I’ve never seen any mention of using PCB stuff for art glass. Is there any reason that PCB stuff would be ill suited for glass art?

For sand blasting, what’s the difference between the results you can get using a vinyl mask vs a photo sensitive mask? Does one type of mask give sharper lines than the other?

For acid etching, what’s the difference between the results you can get using a vinyl mask vs a photo sensitive mask? Does one type of mask give sharper lines than the other?

What type and thickness of vinyl should I use to create sand blast masks? Will most any vinyl work?

I’m looking for cheap solutions. For vinyl cutters in the under $1000 range I’ve found: Lynx12 and Roland Stika SX-15 (both available from Sign Warehouse http://www.signwarehouse.com/). The local sign equipment store recommends something more industrial duty like the Roland Camm-1 CX-24 (which of course costs a lot more). What do you guys recommend?

And finally (for now at least) what are significant questions that I don’t even know that I don’t know?

Thanks, I eagerly await your enlightenment.

Larry

[charlie]

I?d like to make custom, fairly detailed patterns on dichroic, iridized, and mica coated glass. I?m leaning toward using a sand blaster and vinyl masks. Before I do anything too stupid (like reaching for my MasterCard) I?d like to get some feedback from the experts.

So, if you?ll indulge me, I have a few questions ?

Near as I can tell, there are two principal methods for creating patterns: sand blasting and acid etching. Are there any other useful methods I should be looking into?

From other posts on this board it seems acid etching of dichroic works fine. Can iridized and mica be acid etched? If so, what are the recommended acids?

yes. no. acid will etch metal. iridization is metal. mica isn't, and won't be affected by acid.

Can acid be applied using a silk screen? If so, what combinations of screen material and acid are recommended?

not seen it done. wouldn't it seep under the edges making everything blurry? you have to leave acid on for a while for it to work, and wouldn't it affect things when you wash it off?

When acid etching with a vinyl mask, do you need special vinyl or can you use any sign vinyl?

There?s a lot of stuff available to allow hobbyists to make their own printed circuit boards (PCB). (A PCB is a piece of fiberglass with copper coating. Unwanted areas of copper are acid etched away to leave copper wires that interconnect electronic parts that get soldered to the PCB.) I would think that PCB techniques would be ideal for dichroic (don?t know about iridized or mica) and much cheaper than the other photo masking systems I have seen recommended for glass. But I?ve never seen any mention of using PCB stuff for art glass. Is there any reason that PCB stuff would be ill suited for glass art?

For sand blasting, what?s the difference between the results you can get using a vinyl mask vs a photo sensitive mask? Does one type of mask give sharper lines than the other?

details. you can get far more details with photo than cut vinyl. your 'knife' is a lot smaller.

For acid etching, what?s the difference between the results you can get using a vinyl mask vs a photo sensitive mask? Does one type of mask give sharper lines than the other?

What type and thickness of vinyl should I use to create sand blast masks? Will most any vinyl work?

i've found contact paper from walmart is far cheaper and works just as well as venturetape resist for light sandblasting (removing mica, irid, etc).

I?m looking for cheap solutions. For vinyl cutters in the under $1000 range I?ve found: Lynx12 and Roland Stika SX-15 (both available from Sign Warehouse http://www.signwarehouse.com/). The local sign equipment store recommends something more industrial duty like the Roland Camm-1 CX-24 (which of course costs a lot more). What do you guys recommend?

And finally (for now at least) what are significant questions that I don?t even know that I don?t know?

Thanks, I eagerly await your enlightenment.

Larry

[Cheryl]

a class from one of our wonderful artists on this board!! You might try to get into one of Avery Anderson's classes, as she teaches these techniques. In the interim, here's my 2 cents:

One method is to put something on the glass like mica or enamel or paint (or have something already on the glass, like an irridized coating or dichroic coating), and then apply a stencil to keep the parts you want, blast off the parts you don't. You can use photo resist, hand-cut resist, or computer-cut resist to do this. It requires a sandblaster.

The second method is just to put something on the glass - a design. You can silk-screen onto glass. No blaster (unless Tony is involved).

Acid is not a reliable method. The acids that really work are highly toxic. The other ones don't work well at all.

So I would decide whether I was more interested in putting designs onto glass (call it additive) or taking finishes off glass and then work from there. Once you know whether you're adding or taking away, you know your basic equipment needs. Then you need to decide the level of detail you need - photo resist is probably best, also $$. Then comes silk-screening, then hand-cut resist. (I don't even know how to cost out computer cut resist - Tony?)

The other thing you need to think about is, how are you producing the designs? Either silk-screening or photo resist requires a really really clean dark image, generally computer-generated.

Also, you might look at the sandblasting books by the Dobbses. They'll help you to see some of the differences in technique in terms of final product.

[stargazer]

What computer program do you plan to use if you go with a plotter? Some of them are expensive, make sure what you get will work before you buy. Roland Digital has a good user forum (rolanddga.com, support, user forum, vinyl cutters) . I have a Camm-1 and use Corel Draw. We get very fine detail using a plotter, sandblast mask, and pressureized aluminum oxide (sandblasting). We use very thin sign vinyl for frosting or taking away surfaces, we use very thick Anchor rubber for deep carving. Make sure you use the right angle blade for whatever you are cutting. And you might want a good scanner if you don't have one. Its very expensive to set this all up. We have collected piece by piece over the last 15 years. But we sure do love what it all does. sheryl

[Tony Smith]

You can cut 3/32" wide linework with a signplotter. With photoresist, you can easily do 1/10 of that or 0.009". It depends on the level of detail you want.

Etching cream works well with some materials: micas, dichroics and non-bullseye irids. The Bullseye irids are really tough and tend to ignore etching cream. Signvinyl works well with etching cream for a short time... after a while, it starts to seep under the edges. There is a special photoresist available (without a membrane) for use with etching cream.

Sign vinyl typically runs about $10 - $20/sq ft plus an art charge. I use Adobe Illustrator to generate all vector images and it works seamlessly with my plotter software. Photoresist runs about $10/sq ft just for the material. I also use Adobe Illustrator for my photoresist graphics.

I hope this helps

Tony