Reusche Carmine 2777 is a Ruby? 1298A?

Don Burt · Post by **Don Burt** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:20 am

I'm doing christmas suncatchers. I do them each year: Animals in red hats. I have opaque red enamels of various brands. They work OK. but I've been doing more transparent suncatchers....more subtle shading on the critters. The opaque enamels look OK in the sun. They look crappy on the surface in incident light.

I would like to have a transparent ruby enamel. I see in Elskus' book that Carmine 2777 would be a beautiful Christmas hat color. I have some Carmine 2777. It is not ruby. Its magenta. Carmine, actually. Elskus' book says its most effective when applied heabily and fired hotter. I've tried that. Its a freekin magenta, not a ruby.

In pic below:
#1 - The 'Exceptionally rich dark ruby' described by Elskus
#2 and #3 - What I bought, and what it does
#4 - From Elskus...looks like my 2777
#5 - Closest thing to a transparent ruby that I have.

Did #2777 change in Reusche's line from being a 'Exceptionally rich dark ruby' to being a very nice deep magenta?

Can someone recommend a transparent ruby? Shouldn't a Resuche ruby in their catalog be , well (as I like to say), a ruby? Elskus raves about that 1298A Ruby. Has anybody used that? Is it a ruby and not a magenta?

Dani · Post by **Dani** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:29 pm

Try firing a little less hot, Don, even though Elskus says to fire hotter just as an experiment. It's really hard to get a good Santa Claus red with the Reusches, that's for sure. Transparency is the key problem. The ruby transparent won't give you red either. We use if with silverstain to tone down the pink. It's a frustration, especially as your eye develops and the weight of the paints becomes so apparent.

Dani · Post by **Dani** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:44 pm

M. says fire the carmine at 1050 -1150 degrees. And while you're at it, do you have test strips of the paints applied from very heavy on one end to feathered out to almost nothing? We have them of all the paints including the silverstain. Then you can layer the samples of varying thickness to get your closest desired color tactic. How did you get that one intense red on the frog rose window? Was that too opaque for you?

Rebecca M. · Post by **Rebecca M.** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:50 pm

I'll do some tests this afternoon with D22932 Carmine and 1333 Red For Flesh that I have. Also some other things I have around. I'm thinking that the tin side of float may change the colors just like the silverstain because of the metal content of the paint. In this case gold.
The D22932 I remember having a nice color, close but not ruby. Haven't used it for a while. I think it was the closest I could get without spending 75 bucks for a bit of paint.
The 1333 I have no hope of looking like a ruby, but will run a test anyway.
And I have some things I haven't tested yet, so now is a good time as any.
I'll post later with results.

Don Burt · Post by **Don Burt** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:44 pm

Dani wrote:M. says fire the carmine at 1050 -1150 degrees. And while you're at it, do you have test strips of the paints applied from very heavy on one end to feathered out to almost nothing? We have them of all the paints including the silverstain. Then you can layer the samples of varying thickness to get your closest desired color tactic. How did you get that one intense red on the frog rose window? Was that too opaque for you?

I've heard that before...use silverstain to redden the pinkish enamel. Its time to try it. Will try some Reusche 1298A too w/silverstain, just because its an excuse to get some paint. Thanks for the feedback.
On that frog window all the reds and oranges are fused bullseye glass on clear, blasted away in the frog shape. I've been tempted to use Lamberts flashed red, but it would be such a waste to use a 5" circle of lamberts to get a .5 square inch of santa hat.

Don Burt · Post by **Don Burt** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:50 pm

Becca wrote:I'll do some tests this afternoon with D22932 Carmine and 1333 Red For Flesh that I have. Also some other things I have around. I'm thinking that the tin side of float may change the colors just like the silverstain because of the metal content of the paint. In this case gold.
The D22932 I remember having a nice color, close but not ruby. Haven't used it for a while. I think it was the closest I could get without spending 75 bucks for a bit of paint.
The 1333 I have no hope of looking like a ruby, but will run a test anyway.
And I have some things I haven't tested yet, so now is a good time as any.
I'll post later with results.

My test strips are usually on Blenko or Casimir clear. But I've been using float for the first batch of suncatchers. I hope there's not to much variation because of the float tin side. If you do get a test-out on that D22891 I'd appreciate hearing how it turns out. Thanks for the feedback.

Bert Weiss · Post by **Bert Weiss** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:41 pm

Just a thought.

I'd try some Reusche blood red enamel with lots of flux and maybe some carmine mixed in.

Another avenue I'd investigate is Mr and Mrs or one of the other European enamel resellers.

Rebecca M. · Post by **Rebecca M.** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:35 pm

Tests done. The picture isn't the best. The Carmine and the Fusemaster Chinese Red glossed up nice, the Red for Flesh and the lead-free Red china paint didn't. They also aren't red or ruby either. That silverstain mixing sounds like a very interesting test subject. Wish I'd read that post before I was all done.
I also tried a pure pigment powder red mixed with the china paint flux powder. Lovely pure red that turned a vivid powdery yellow when fired.

I used Damar varnish, fired to 1150, no visible difference of tin/non-tin sides.

Dani · Post by **Dani** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:06 pm

I share Don's frustration.... the issue really is not just a matter of redness, but transparency. That's where the china paints fall short. I find the Fusemasters way too obscuring. The Reusche blood red enamel is obscuring also. I don't think we've gotten it to fire out as expected, dried blood red would be a better name for it.... it tends toward rust.

Don Burt · Post by **Don Burt** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:40 pm

Becca wrote:Tests done. The picture isn't the best. The Carmine and the Fusemaster Chinese Red glossed up nice, the Red for Flesh and the lead-free Red china paint didn't. They also aren't red or ruby either. That silverstain mixing sounds like a very interesting test subject. Wish I'd read that post before I was all done.
I also tried a pure pigment powder red mixed with the china paint flux powder. Lovely pure red that turned a vivid powdery yellow when fired.
I used Damar varnish, fired to 1150, no visible difference of tin/non-tin sides.

Thanks for posting that. The carmine you posted looks redder than the carmine I posted. I'm fooling around with some of the ideas Dani and Bert suggested. Wish I had a little test kiln instead of that brick monument I own.

Tom White · Post by **Tom White** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:30 am

Don, have you considered fusing thin transparent red (1122-50F) for just the hat areas? I presume you are trying to do these in just one firing and I do not know how your other colors would hold up to a full fuse firing. I don't know of anything else that would give you a brighter, transparent red with even perhaps a hint of relief in the hat area depending on the fuse temp you use.

With any fired medium (glass, china paint or ceramics) a translucent bright red seems very hard to produce in a paint. The lead, cadmium, selenium pigment ingredients needed to produce a bright red color seem to produce an opaque color instead of a translucent color. In addition, red seems to resent attempts to make it more translucent by the addition of clear or flux. In ceramics red diluted with clear goes to gray or even clear before it will go to translucent red.

I know you did not start out wanting fused hat areas but who knows, it might be the best (only) way to get what you seem to want.

Best wishes,
Tom in Texas

Don Burt · Post by **Don Burt** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:39 am

Tom, you're right. Coarse red-orange frit or thin struck to cherry red would be the way to go. maybe on next year's wren or rabbit.
I don't have the materials or patience to try fusing the red on. I'd have o switch to compatible thin glass and frit and I don't have the right stuff.

I got my latest test batch out of the kiln just now. I got some beautiful colors for my redesigned holiday still-life suncatchers of cranberries and pomegranates.

The colors remind me of my dislike for Beaujolais Nouveau.

No, I'm still going with the santa hats. I'm going to score an ounce of 1298A and try a test of that with silver stain. In the meantime, Chinese Red applied THICK with silverstain is a beautiful warm cranberry, and will be fine. (fine, as in; wrong, but its almost Thanksgiving).

Thanks everybody for the feedback.

sadiesjewels · Post by **sadiesjewels** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:59 pm

How about enamels rather than paints? I haven't done any testing ... and red is notoriously difficult on silver anyway ... so much so that it is usually coated in a clear flux first before firing with red (so would think the tin side of glass would be the same)...

Of course you'd have to find an enamel with the appropriate COE I imagine...

Sadie

Dani · Post by **Dani** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:28 pm

I presume Don is going for transparency in which case you can forget enamels. The ruby transparent over silverstain works fine (Reusches) and we don't even bother to consider COE with painting as the application is to minimal to create a problem. I've painted and fired on every glass imaginable with the Reusches and no compatability issues. Don, did you get your Ruby and how is that working?

Don Burt · Post by **Don Burt** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:52 pm

Dani wrote: Don, did you get your Ruby and how is that working?

I got an ounce of 1298A, but its still too blue. Beautiful color though. I'm going with red opaque enamel. Why fight it?

sadiesjewels · Post by **sadiesjewels** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:07 pm

That's great Don, very cute!

Dani, I'm not quite sure why you would exclude transparency (or coe for that matter) with red enamels ... since (and my experience here is chiefly with enamelling on copper and silver so forgive me if I'm off base with the information here - and I'm more than willing to be corrected) Thompson enamels show a range of red transparent enamels ... more in the medium temp/med expansion (for copper, silver and gold - which I had rather gathered were incompatible for glass - at least in my limited experience they have been so far) ... and only one (which could be more carmine in color from the catalog) in med temp/low expansion (supposedly for window glass)...

I appreciate not worrying too much about the coe with the paint ...

sadie

Liam · Post by **Liam** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:40 am

I,m sure you thought of this but I'll mention it anyways. Blast red flashed, then paint the blasted area?

Dani · Post by **Dani** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:00 pm

That's a logical conclusion, Liam.... but, an awful lot of blasting, not to mention expense of the flash for that itty-bitty piece of red. Or at least that's how my logic works. I don't know of any enamels that are transparent in transmitted light except a very few of the Reusches.... even their low-fires are not truly transparent. I would be glad to know of any brands that really are.

Don Burt · Post by **Don Burt** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:37 pm

Liam wrote:I,m sure you thought of this but I'll mention it anyways. Blast red flashed, then paint the blasted area?

Would be perfect. But not worth the wasted flash, methinks.