PMC for glass fusing jewelry

Terry Ow-Wing · Post by **Terry Ow-Wing** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:39 am

I'm thinking of taking a class. Can people who have experience with PMC comment on the plus and minus of usng the pmc with glass in general? I'm not looing for detail info on the difference between the different PMC's but the overall endeavor.

Thanks!
Terry O.

dee · Post by **dee** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:33 am

Terry Ow-Wing wrote:I'm thinking of taking a class. Can people who have experience with PMC comment on the plus and minus of usng the pmc with glass in general? I'm not looing for detail info on the difference between the different PMC's but the overall endeavor.

Thanks!
Terry O.

hi terry, i'm doing some prototyping of some pendants with pmc and art silver clay - they are kinda like coke and pepsi - - you want to use pmc 3 with glass as it shrinks less and fires at a much lower temp that the other 2 and there's less shrinkage. art clay silver has a new flavor out that is the equivalent of pmc 3 also. rainbow art glass is selling pmc 3 at prices that put the cost right about $1/gram of silver clay so it's a bit more affordable and won't add a horrendous cost to a piece when wholesaling one's work. the book by maryann devos is a good book to have as she has a lot of good tips in there for working on pieces with pmc and glass. it can be timeconsuming however.

it can be very time consuming to get the piece smooth and professional looking, that's where i am finding i spend most of my time on what i'm doing....
D

jj jacobs · Post by **jj jacobs** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 10:33 am

I took a class last fall from Robyn Alexander in Berkeley to learn about working with PMC. It's so easy to use and is an excellent medium to combine with fused glass. I was able to make 4 silver pendants with glass cabachons from just one small package of PMC. You can also use PMC for making unique bales for necklaces and fun earrings. For a darker finish you can dip the finished piece into a mixture of Liver of Sulphur and warm water.

There are classes in PMC which allow you to get certifed so that you can become distributors for the product and teach. They run for several sessions and are expensive. Robyn teaches the basics in one afternoon and is able to sell you the product on the spot--the prices are comparable to Rio Grande's and Rings & Things.

Carol B · Post by **Carol B** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:19 am

Terry Ow-Wing wrote:I'm thinking of taking a class. Can people who have experience with PMC comment on the plus and minus of usng the pmc with glass in general? I'm not looing for detail info on the difference between the different PMC's but the overall endeavor.

Thanks!
Terry O.

Hi Terry,

I used to use quite a bit of PMC - I even took a PMC teacher certification class in Portland about 5 years ago. That was before the newer versions of the clay that do not shrink as much and fire for a shorter period of time. My biggest frustration at the time was the shrinkage I guess that is less of a problem now.

Plus's
Easy to work with
Can use household "tools" The only special equipment would be the kiln
You can cold work it with simple hand tools if a touch up is needed

Minus's
It tarnishes very quickly
Big Minus for me - I was informed that you should have a dedicated kiln for PMC. Something about silver fuming. I never had any problems with it but others on the PMC boards had.

Goldfinger · Post by **Goldfinger** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:27 pm

Hi Terry: I too am interested in PMC. There is a good bulletin board at
Yahoo Groups called "Metal Clay". While this board may not be as active as WGBB- there is still a great deal information on it and the members are just as helpful.

Steve

Robyn Alexander · Post by **Robyn Alexander** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:39 pm

JJ Jacobs wrote:I took a class last fall from Robyn Alexander in Berkeley to learn about working with PMC. It's so easy to use and is an excellent medium to combine with fused glass. I was able to make 4 silver pendants with glass cabachons from just one small package of PMC. You can also use PMC for making unique bales for necklaces and fun earrings. For a darker finish you can dip the finished piece into a mixture of Liver of Sulphur and warm water.

There are classes in PMC which allow you to get certifed so that you can become distributors for the product and teach. They run for several sessions and are expensive. Robyn teaches the basics in one afternoon and is able to sell you the product on the spot--the prices are comparable to Rio Grande's and Rings & Things.

Thanks for the mention, JJ. It's always nice to hear students speak well of classes, especially several months after the glow has faded. BTW... I loved your magnet!

I am offering the same class again in Berkeley at Hot Flash Glass on 4/25. See http://derryhumma.com/class/ for details.

Terry Ow-Wing · Post by **Terry Ow-Wing** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 3:53 pm

Does the silver fuming wreck the kiln or do something that makes it not workable for glass?

Thanks!
Terry O.

Minus's
It tarnishes very quickly
Big Minus for me - I was informed that you should have a dedicated kiln for PMC. Something about silver fuming. I never had any problems with it but others on the PMC boards had.[/quote]

Brock · Post by **Brock** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 4:03 pm

Robyn, please don't take this personally, I don't know you and have no opinion of your work or teaching skills. What I want to know is, does anyone ever fail the PMC certification course? Is it a rubber stamp, you take the course, you're a certified teacher? Is there a tough exam? The reason I ask, is that the Vicki Payne certification is considered by many, including me, to be a total joke, and I wondered about the process in PMC.

Brock

denizen · Post by **denizen** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 5:21 pm

[quote="Terry Ow-Wing"]Does the silver fuming wreck the kiln or do something that makes it not workable for glass?

Silver fumes can change the color of some colors of glass (I know Moretti dark ivory is one, not sure of others). It can be a very interesting effect, some beadmakers use it, but it isn't something you want to get by accident.

I suppose a bit of silver might vaporize and cling to the kiln walls, then get vaporized again in the next firing and alter the color of another piece.

Lee

Goldfinger · Post by **Goldfinger** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 5:40 pm

Terry: I've heard two stories about using PMC in a kiln. One is true and the other is apparently a myth.

It's true there can be some discoloration between PMC and certain colored glasses. That's a fact and should you decide to get into PMC -I'm sure there's plenty of information on which colored glasses to use and which one's to avoid.

As for the silver vapor theory. That's pretty much a myth. I had a conversation with Ken Devos of the PMC Connection concerning this very subject and in all of his years working with PMC - He- nor anyone else he knows -has had any contamination of glass from the silver fumes left over in a kiln supposedly being given off by the PMC.

Steve

Barbara Muth · Post by **Barbara Muth** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:01 pm

Steve Eshbaugh wrote:Terry: I've heard two stories about using PMC in a kiln. One is true and the other is apparently a myth.

It's true there can be some discoloration between PMC and certain colored glasses. That's a fact and should you decide to get into PMC -I'm sure there's plenty of information on which colored glasses to use and which one's to avoid.

As for the silver vapor theory. That's pretty much a myth. I had a conversation with Ken Devos of the PMC Connection concerning this very subject and in all of his years working with PMC - He- nor anyone else he knows -has had any contamination of glass from the silver fumes left over in a kiln supposedly being given off by the PMC.

Steve

That was a rumour started on the society of glass beadmaker's board to explain the discoloration of one person's beads. It has traveled the beadmaking/PMC world since then, but no one has been able to provide concrete evidence that it's true. There were probably a lot of other hypotheses that could have been proposed and were not.

If your pmc sits on your shelf, you may silver stain the next piece of glass you fire on the shelf. I fired silver leaf on my shelf once and did stain a few pieces after that, but eventually the silver is gone. If you were doing a lot of pmc, you might want to consider having a pmc shelf and a glass only shelf.

Barbara

Carol B · Post by **Carol B** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:06 pm

Brock wrote:Robyn, please don't take this personally, I don't know you and have no opinion of your work or teaching skills. What I want to know is, does anyone ever fail the PMC certification course? Is it a rubber stamp, you take the course, you're a certified teacher? Is there a tough exam? The reason I ask, is that the Vicki Payne certification is considered by many, including me, to be a total joke, and I wondered about the process in PMC.

Brock

I failed to get certified

So getting the certificate is not a given. Although I learned a lot.......the experience was less than wonderful. I and several others in that class got a full refund. I am not a great fan of the PMC guild. Rio sponsered the classes and they were wonderful.

Jim Wixon · Post by **Jim Wixon** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:09 am

I fire the pmc on a dedicated shelf or some fiber paper(1/8") and with pad of alumina hydrate if the piece is dimensional. It can be fired along with glass pieces that use the same temps.
There has never been a problem with the fumes but there can be severe silver stains on the glass that follows on the shelf.
jim

Robyn Alexander · Post by **Robyn Alexander** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 4:53 am

Brock wrote:Robyn, please don't take this personally, I don't know you and have no opinion of your work or teaching skills. What I want to know is, does anyone ever fail the PMC certification course? Is it a rubber stamp, you take the course, you're a certified teacher? Is there a tough exam? The reason I ask, is that the Vicki Payne certification is considered by many, including me, to be a total joke, and I wondered about the process in PMC.

Brock

No offense taken. I am not familiar with the Vicki Payne certification, but the PMC Certifications are, well, uneven at best. Certification only means I demonstrated a reasonable grasp of a limited set of skills to somebody. Passing the BAR doesn't make one a great lawyer either.

Most of what I know was gleaned at the side of Hadar Jacobsen, a truly gifted artist and teacher with whom I studied for over a year. Check out http://www.artinsilver.com to see what is possible in PMC when you combine quality craftsmanship, inspiration, attention to detail and imagination. She is a fabulous teacher as well, always pushing her students while constantly raising the bar. For the record, she is not certified.

My certification through Rio Grande was earned in a class taught by Christopher Darway, a traditional metalsmith on the faculty of University of the Arts in Philadelphia. A talented instructor, he is innovative and thinks outside the box with an emphasis on excellence. The 3-day course was challenging, fun, inspiring, overwhelming, exhausting and exhilarating. The projects are well-defined and chosen to specifically cover a broad set of skills -- stone setting, finishing work, slab construction, hollow form, texture, rings, mold making, etc. Not everyone passes, though I'm sure more do than should.

I'm embarrassed to say I lost my mind briefly a few months ago and took a 1-day crossover certification class with PMC Connection. The projects are taken from one of the lamest PMC books out there. The fact that the instructor spent 2+ hours of the day fixing lunch, serving lunch and cleaning up her kitchen..... Enough said. I'd be surprised to hear that anyone failed to pass. Hobbyists, not professionals. (Crafters, perhaps?) ... I'd like to believe this is atypical of their program.

Both certification systems are validated by their use within the PMC Guild, yet there are clear discrepancies between the two programs, and among the instructors within either program. The Guild recently changed the Certified Instructor moniker to Certified Artisan. (Your asking about it reminded me to change my site.) While acknowledging 3 days was not nearly enough time to certify one's abilities as a teacher, they seem OK with certifying craftsmanship based on 6 projects. Go figure.

Certification means little but, for some reason, the PMC world has wrapped its arms around it.

Robyn

charlie · Post by **charlie** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:21 pm

Robyn Alexander wrote: Certification means little but, for some reason, the PMC world has wrapped its arms around it.

Robyn

since it requires certification in order to simply sell the stuff, i wonder if this is tied into a mlm lawsuit avoidance idea?

Robyn Alexander · Post by **Robyn Alexander** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:03 pm

charlie wrote:since it requires certification in order to simply sell the stuff, i wonder if this is tied into a mlm lawsuit avoidance idea?

It does not require certification to sell it. Certification qualifies you for deep discounts without the large quantity requirement. At least that is the case with Rio Grande. It is true that many instructirs keep enough on hand to sell to students -- but that is for convenience more than anything. I's not like they can go pick it up at Michael's on the way to class.

Robyn

MeranCandy · Post by **MeranCandy** » Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:00 pm

I's not like they can go pick it up at Michael's on the way to class.

Robyn[/quote]
no, but you can buy it at Hobby Lobby for more money than buying it thru Rio Grande.

There's quite a bit on this topic (PMC) in the archives.. I know, cuz I put some out there.

And I've had PMC sit out, in my home atmosphere for 4 yrs (as finished jewelry of course) and it's never tarnished.. It's the brass in the Sterling that usually tarnishes quickly.. the pure silver is known not to tarnish as quickly.. and honestly, the little I've seen tarnish is a golden color..

Take the class. It's fun.
Candy

sadiesjewels · Post by **sadiesjewels** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:44 am

Hello all,

I've toyed quite a bit with PMC and art clay ... I've taken classes with Hadar Jacobsen and Robyn Alexander ... and one other. I've enjoyed them all (thanks Robyn) and learned a lot about the medium, but at the end of the day I have had trouble including it in the type of work that I do. I do a lot of traditional silversmithing work, as well as fusing and lampworking and just haven't figured my own individual way of combining it in my work. It's something I've tried to include but just can't make it work - yet.

One of the reasons I moved from Art Clay to PMC was the pricing structure. This is one of the things that really bothers me about how the clays are marketed. You have to be certified to get the best pricing and that really bugs me ... the Art Clay Certification courses required copying the exact projects from the book to be certified and at an exhoribitant cost (I thought) ... copying someone elses project just isn't right to me ... I just can't do it and claim any creative satisfaction. I can understand having to use a certain technigue for a certain effect, but a direct copy ... no ...

Some of the major books on the subject have some of the most unappealing and ugly projects ... truly awful examples of art ... - I'd better stop here before I excel in expressing my feelings of horror at what is acceptable for a piece of jewelry in the art clay and pmc world!

I too had read about the effects of the clays on glass in the kiln ... I have found no one who uses clay to support the argument that it effects future kiln firings although I am sceptical enough to not use my glass kiln for precious metal clay firings for fear of ruining my glass kiln (yes, I am a member of the isgb and read the information about kiln contamination). If and when I truly find a need to use pmc or art clay I will purchase a dedicated kiln for it's use.

Some of the reactive glass colors do react with the fine silver in the clays ... so any color that reacts with silver will also have a reaction with the clay. That is something that you just take in to consideration when choosing a cabachon to fire in the clay - lampworkers are usually familiar with the effects on silver on different glass colors and use it to great effect in some of their work.

For the record ... the metal most commonly used in sterling silver (apart from silver that is) is copper ... this is what causes sterling to tarnish ... occasionally other metals are used instead of copper. Sterling is only 925 parts out of a 1000 ... fine silver (which is what the art clays are) is 999 parts silver.

Sorry, not much help,

sadie

WarmGlass.com