Technique Ownership - A Question of Ethics

[Lani McGregor]

[The people that get to me are the ones that say they want to buy a kiln so they can make a glass sink....

Tony[/quote]


And whose fault is that? There are ads out in our industry now telling folks that "it's so simple my DOG can program my controller!" .... in the rush to sell stuff (classes included) a lot of innocents are being led to believe that all they need to do is buy a particular glass or a particular kiln and their lines will be straight and their slumps will be perfect.

... and I bet my dog will figure out the Quote box thing before I do! L

[Tony Smith]

The people that get to me are the ones that say they want to buy a kiln so they can make a glass sink....

Tony

And whose fault is that? There are ads out in our industry now telling folks that "it's so simple my DOG can program my controller!" .... in the rush to sell stuff (classes included) a lot of innocents are being led to believe that all they need to do is buy a particular glass or a particular kiln and their lines will be straight and their slumps will be perfect.

... and I bet my dog will figure out the Quote box thing before I do! L

Lani, while you are in the post that you want to quote, click the "Quote" button (top right) not the "Post Reply" button in the bottom left. It will bring you into a post reply screen with the quote already properly formatted. In HTML the "/" means off, so start your message after the "[/quote]" command.

I agree wholeheartedly. Regarding a "preprogrammed" kiln that will "do it all"... Skutt should know better. Not that the kiln doesn't work well in the hands of an expert. One of the problems is that since the kiln is sold direct to the customer, the local retailers have never seen it or used it, and can't help the customer with the controller or the kiln... so they are really on their own... "let the buyer beware" may apply here, but the buyer doesn't know any better.

I can't think of any other industry where I've seen this type of marketing.

Tony

[Lani McGregor]

The people that get to me are the ones that say they want to buy a kiln so they can make a glass sink....

Tony

And whose fault is that? There are ads out in our industry now telling folks that "it's so simple my DOG can program my controller!" .... in the rush to sell stuff (classes included) a lot of innocents are being led to believe that all they need to do is buy a particular glass or a particular kiln and their lines will be straight and their slumps will be perfect.
L

I agree wholeheartedly. Regarding a "preprogrammed" kiln that will "do it all"... Skutt should know better. Not that the kiln doesn't work well in the hands of an expert. One of the problems is that since the kiln is sold direct to the customer, the local retailers have never seen it or used it, and can't help the customer with the controller or the kiln... so they are really on their own... "let the buyer beware" may apply here, but the buyer doesn't know any better.

I can't think of any other industry where I've seen this type of marketing.

Tony

In Skutt’s defense, they didn’t write the “Dog programmerâ€

[Brad Walker]

Bullseye tries to counteract it by offering high quality classes with honest technical information – not marketing hype. But how does the beginner distinguish the difference? If someone has that answer, I’d love to hear.

It's not the answer you want to hear, but probably the one you already know. The average beginner doesn't distinguish the difference, just like the beginner doesn't distinguish the difference between a fused glass pattern book and a book with honest technical information. (Well, I take part of that back, I suspect the pattern book sells more copies and the class with honest technical information gets fewer students.)

[Barbara Muth]

Bullseye tries to counteract it by offering high quality classes with honest technical information – not marketing hype. But how does the beginner distinguish the difference? If someone has that answer, I’d love to hear.

Lani

Lani, good question. One I have been struggling with for a while now. I was fortunate enough to take my first class with Judith Conway just over two years ago. I don't think the beginner can distinguish, unless they are already educated about craft and/or about glass. And in that case, even if they have yet to touch glass, they have a leg up on other beginners.

I see plenty of glass selling for strange prices on ebay. Junky pendants and cabs that sell, not because they are well designed, but because they are glitsy with dichro. I look at those and wonder what kind of classes the sellers had, if any.

I know some of them have had good classes with conscientious instruction. That they choose to make products that are not visually appealing to me, or that are not art in my opinion, is their choice. They had good instruction, they have good examples to follow, but they choose not to, or perhaps are not capable of following.

I guess where I am going is that even if the beginner could distinguish between hype and truth in advertsiing when selecting instructors and products, does that insure that they will produce art?

I agreed with you last fall, Lani. I believe that the market is being flooded with glass junk. All I can do is look for venues with informed buyers and strive to produce the best work possible. Then the junk will be so totally out of my league that I don't have to worry about competing with it.

On a side not, my husband is fascinated with the number of scientists and engineers in our ranks. He thinks that the mind that has been trained in the sciences is prepared for the rigor of testing and learning that accompanies glass work. I know for me part of the fascination is the opportunity to combine a technical knowledge with art.

I agree wholeheartedly. Regarding a "preprogrammed" kiln that will "do it all"... Skutt should know better. Not that the kiln doesn't work well in the hands of an expert. One of the problems is that since the kiln is sold direct to the customer, the local retailers have never seen it or used it, and can't help the customer with the controller or the kiln... so they are really on their own... "let the buyer beware" may apply here, but the buyer doesn't know any better

While I know some people might pooh-pooh it, The paragon Quickfire (the marshmallow kiln) has been an invaluable tool to me. I used that kiln for a good year. I learned about glass and how it works by observing it in the kiln. If my first kiln had had a controller on it (and there were some who argued that that was what I should get) I don't think I would be making today what I make. Thanks, Judith, for selling me the best first glass purchase I ever made.

And isn't it great to work with someone who talks you out of purchases? Judith has talked me out of several things I was considering buying from her because she knew they wouldn't meet my needs.


just rambling today.

Barbara

[Lani McGregor]

...my husband is fascinated with the number of scientists and engineers in our ranks. He thinks that the mind that has been trained in the sciences is prepared for the rigor of testing and learning that accompanies glass work. I know for me part of the fascination is the opportunity to combine a technical knowledge with art.

just rambling today.

Barbara

Agreed! I'm always thrilled to see the engineers, doctors, etc. that gravitate to glass with minds that are pre-tuned to problem-solving. But for the "civilian" without that talent, I guess that - after my initial reservations - I'm more and more inclined to vote for a certification program that would at least insure that his/her beginning instructor knows what annealing is.

...as for how to merge the art and the science of it .... well, *that's* waaaay tougher than annealing anyday...

[Cynthia]

Bullseye tries to counteract it by offering high quality classes with honest technical information – not marketing hype. But how does the beginner distinguish the difference? If someone has that answer, I’d love to hear.

It's not the answer you want to hear, but probably the one you already know. The average beginner doesn't distinguish the difference, just like the beginner doesn't distinguish the difference between a fused glass pattern book and a book with honest technical information. (Well, I take part of that back, I suspect the pattern book sells more copies and the class with honest technical information gets fewer students.)

Isn't it possible that there is a market for those who want to push a button and bend a plate, and those of us who want to learn all we can absorb about the medium and push those buttons instead?

I took my first fusing class not even knowing what it was. I just knew I liked glass...but didn't have the desire to do stained glass, and this wasn't stained glass. It was a dichroic jewelry class and we did a few projects where we stacked and capped dichro, etched dichro... I didn't learn anything about firing or the properties of glass in that class that I recall, we just made it and she baked it, but it was enough to get me interested and I am grateful that she was there to introduce me to fused glass at it's most basic. I took another, and I learned that this was something I wanted to persue. Then I sought out a class that was technical in nature to learn the basics and on it went from there. I purchased my first kiln after my third class. I sold two of the last paintings I did to buy a kiln, and I haven't painted since.

Using myself as an example, I think people will put their feet in the water and decide to jump in and swim, wade or start looking for another pool to dabble in. I wanted to jump in and sink or swim. But if I hadn't stumbled across a make it and take it class...I would still be painting.

I think creative work can be practiced at many levels. Some will want to do the work from patterns, others will want to make their own designs. Some want to make windchimes and sell at street fairs while others want to find their work and themselves in fine galleries or museums. I expect there is room for Steuben (sp?) and Anchor Hocking.

Pilchuck, Corning, Red Deer and others who offer high level glass and art educations are still around fostering artistry along with technical competence. There are only a few who will chose to persue their work to that level...There are going to be the Brock and Avery type courses that are a good fit for the hobbyist to the professional to advance their skill levels, and there will be the make it and take it kinds of classes for the person who just wants to make a nice set of coasters that they can call thier own. Out of those classes will come the person who will strive to take their creativity and the medium to differing levels.

What Bullseye has to offer meets the criteria for a different audience than those that are offering a more user friendly option for the person who is not inclined to do more than cut a circle and bend it. I am not meaning to make a qualitative statement about either, just that each appeals to and attracts a different user.

I feel that BE is consciously fostering and/or supporting a fine craft to fine art sensibility and end user for their product. For me this is a refreshing approach because I don't see that fine arts audience as the majority of the users of their product. But by putting glass into the hands of artists and supporting a fine art perspective in what is traditionally a craft medium is incredibly helpful and supportive to me and my ambitions.

Supporting the crafters industry is already alive, well and thriving. What Bullseye has done and continues to do to bring to the forefront (along with other higher level teaching organizations) a fine arts/crafts potential for this medium, strikes me as a tapping into a previously unsupported segment of users, and propels the concept and possibilities that this medium can be exploited and used in a fine arts/crafts venue. Whew that was one serious run on sentence....

If what you are looking for is a teaching/learning experience with value to you, look for what and who offers the best fit for your needs and desires.

There will always be paint by numbers kits and Renoir's, there will always be Blenko and Chihuly, there will always be a continuum from crude to fine in all fields. What that truly means I don't know, but I expect that we will live in a world where all can find their comfort zone and work with it. There will be different levels of teaching and education to support the continuum.

As a consumer looking for education, do some research. Find the best fit for you, and like anything else...there are lemons out there and just watch out for them.

Caveat Emptor.

[Patty Gray]

Well stated Cynthia.

[Lani McGregor]

What Bullseye has to offer meets the criteria for a different audience than those that are offering a more user friendly option .

Cynthia, I don't think that misinformation is user friendly. Leading someone to believe that they can push a button and make a plate isn't offering a service. It's conning someone.

And before we're again misunderstood as elitists, I'd like to say Bullseye LOVES hobbyists.... they pay our salaries! I'd like them to get their money's worth.

(sorry, I feel like I'm sort of hogging this thread..., but some of the buttons being pushed aren't just on kilns) Lani

[Cynthia]

What Bullseye has to offer meets the criteria for a different audience than those that are offering a more user friendly option .

Cynthia, I don't think that misinformation is user friendly. Leading someone to believe that they can push a button and make a plate isn't offering a service. It's conning someone.

And before we're again misunderstood as elitists, I'd like to say Bullseye LOVES hobbyists.... they pay our salaries! I'd like them to get their money's worth.

(sorry, I feel like I'm sort of hogging this thread..., but some of the buttons being pushed aren't just on kilns) Lani

I'm not trying to push buttons, and I worry that perhaps you've misunderstood my observations. I haven't seen the ads or the product being talked about here. So can't respond to wether it's misinformation or not...I was really responding to a concept rather than an actual kiln and controller.

When I say user friendly, I mean that I think there is room for something less complex than firing schedules and an understanding of the properties of glass for the person who just wants to stay basic and not progress from there. There are those who want to cut a circle, put it on a mold and bend it...kinda like an Easy Bake Oven for kids...add water, put it under the light bulb and Viola! a little cake! If there is an option for that person to fulfill that desire to simply bend some glass...well is that so bad? Couldn't that kind of a tool be created for that person? I'm really just asking a question (granted, rhetorical in nature). It would be a terribly limiting tool, but so is an Easy Bake Oven .

I also wasn't implying that BE is elitist any more than I was implying that other manufacturers are pedestrian. I only intended to express that BE is taking a marketing approach that is inclusive of the fine artist by getting glass into their hands and creating and fostering those opportunities along with the already established hobby applications. I appreciate that Bullseye has taken the fine artists concerns into their company approach to product and marketing. There isn't a value attached to that observation.

I apologize if it could be construed that I was attacking Bullseye in any way or making some kind of a value statement.

I am off the board for a week at least, so I'll check back then to see how you have all progressed in this discussion.

This is the first thread in this new forum that has really captured my attention. Feels like an old sweater; really good.

TTFN

[Lani McGregor]

Cynthia.... please don't apologize. I didn't feel attacked.

It just seems that sometimes it's difficult here to stress the need for quality, accuracy and higher artistic aspirations without being thought of as "not user friendly" ... hobbyists deserve the best. I believe that, Bullseye believes that.

You and I don't disagree. The best can be simply a quality class that lets someone walk away with a well-made (well-annealed) object and never think about programming a kiln. Or it can be providing an education and inspiration to go the distance.

I'm just arguing against telling anyone his pet can fuse glass. (Find the ad. I think you'd be offended. My cat was.) L

.....yeah yeah yeah I know.... the ad was supposed to be cute and I have no sense of humor. It wasn't. I do.

[Patty Gray]

Lani, where did you see this dog ad?

[Bert Weiss]

In the realm of synopsizing agreement, I think what we want to see is a class that in one way or another inspires it's students to undertake the path of practice. A beginning class needs to give enough science to get them started and enough technique to inspire imaginations. An advanced class is really much the same only more complicated.

Once one's imagination is inspired and then they encounter technical failure, there is WGBB to help educate. Answering questions can really help the answerer to clarify thinking and tune in to what people need to learn. I think that participating in this forum is a win win. There are better teachers now and a way for stucents to get answers. Kind of like Radio Shack only different. (sorry I couldn't help myself)

I also thiink that we came up with the realization that nobody owns a technique, so if you don't want people using a technique don't teach it.

We all aspire to make glass sing. That is, on key and soulful.

[Barbara Muth]

I am off the board for a week at least, so I'll check back then to see how you have all progressed in this discussion.

Cynthia, hope to see you while you are here and I hope you do very well!

Barbara

[Lani McGregor]

Lani, where did you see this dog ad?

On this board, of course. I live here.

The first time I saw it was the day Brad posted the notice about Skutt coming on as a new sponsor (March 1, 2002)

I followed the link and ended up in a pile of cute where Jim Matthews was proclaiming the joys of his dog being able to program his Skutt kiln.

I freaked and began haranguing poor Brad. (So he’ll probably remember the ad too). Obviously Tony remembers it since he also found it to be “the clearest example [he’d] seen to date of the ‘dumbing down’ of kiln formingâ€

[The Hobbyist]

You sound like a bunch of evangelical fundamentalist preachers that are more concerned with saving other's soul than with saving their own.

What does it matter if someone wants a to buy a kiln so they can make a sink. They'll either make one and be happy or they'll have a mess and wish they hadn't tried. Neither case should impact the fine art of kiln formed glass.

What does it matter if the local card club thinks it would be fun to make fused Xmas ornaments for this year's fund raiser. Their sales, if there are any, should not take away from the gallery market.

What does it matter if the local glass store wants to bump up sales by bringing some ill prepared unknowledgable teacher that misinstructs the entire class. It will only reflect on the store not on the glass suppliers and kiln makers.

What does it matter if an unemployed plumber supplements his income by fusing up some dichroic earrings to sell at the flea market. His customers would never buy the "good" stuff anyway.

What does it matter if a bunch of hobbyists, like me, are content to make one sheet bowls and drop vases that may even be poorly annealed. It won't reduce the sales volume at the next art show/fair. But it might amuse them and delight the recipients.

Sad as it may be, this is a country of KMarts and not Nordstroms. I doubt that a very large part of the populace knows Renoir from Davinci or cares. The percentage of the population that goes to college or even aspires to go to college is quite small. I doubt they are as unhappy as we would like to think they are.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "I'm just a hobbyist". Yet I get the feeling from all that has been said here that that is, somehow, not good enough. I seem to sense that I should be aspiring to artistic heights, validated by sales volume, or I'm not worthy nor welcome in the fusing community. I have the sense that trying to make things that please people isn't enough. That melting some glass, just for the fun of it, isn't enough.

I happen to enjoy the pursuit of learning and technical excellence in what I do but I can appreciate that there may be many others that would like to make a bowl for grandma, a vase for aunt Lucy, etc without learning how glass behaves in the kiln. They might welcome a kiln with a "pet friendly" controller so they could do what they want without having to learn a new skill. Is there something wrong with them?

Still "Just a hobbyist".....................................G'pa Jim

ps. It does matter if some lazy "entrepreneur" copies your design and technique and sells them at volume savings by making them in a third world country. That's theft and should be prosecuted.

pps. It does matter if anyone misrepresents their product. It should also be prosecuted.

[Kay]

Just a footnote to Cynthia's reply to this subject. Because I'm so new to your world of glass, have been reading a considerable amout of material and somewhere in this mirage a Glass Artist stated "It's not yours until you give it away." Wish I could attibute this directly to someone. Maybe some of you know to whom the credit should go. Kay

[Ron Bell]

Jim, I tried to find something that I disagreed with, but Couldn't!

[Lani McGregor]

You sound like a bunch of evangelical fundamentalist preachers that are more concerned with saving other's soul than with saving their own.

Gotta disagree, Jim. I think our souls are all in the same boat.

What does it matter if someone wants a to buy a kiln so they can make a sink. They'll either make one and be happy or they'll have a mess and wish they hadn't tried. Neither case should impact the fine art of kiln formed glass. .

Unfortunately badly made sinks that are sold - and they are - make it harder for artisans who are trying to sell well-made sinks to overcome the bad rep in the marketplace.

What does it matter if the local card club thinks it would be fun to make fused Xmas ornaments for this year's fund raiser. Their sales, if there are any, should not take away from the gallery market.

Agreed. As long as there IS a healthy gallery market.

What does it matter if the local glass store wants to bump up sales by bringing some ill prepared unknowledgable teacher that misinstructs the entire class. It will only reflect on the store not on the glass suppliers and kiln makers.

Disagree. We take the phone calls and the emails and the letters from the people who think there's something wrong with the glass when it doesn't work. Cleaning up misinformation is time and money.

What does it matter if an unemployed plumber supplements his income by fusing up some dichroic earrings to sell at the flea market. His customers would never buy the "good" stuff anyway.

What does it matter if a bunch of hobbyists, like me, are content to make one sheet bowls and drop vases that may even be poorly annealed. It won't reduce the sales volume at the next art show/fair. But it might amuse them and delight the recipients.

No argument here.

Sad as it may be, this is a country of KMarts and not Nordstroms. I doubt that a very large part of the populace knows Renoir from Davinci or cares. The percentage of the population that goes to college or even aspires to go to college is quite small. I doubt they are as unhappy as we would like to think they are.

Who said anything about ignorance making anyone unhappy?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "I'm just a hobbyist". Yet I get the feeling from all that has been said here that that is, somehow, not good enough. I seem to sense that I should be aspiring to artistic heights, validated by sales volume, or I'm not worthy nor welcome in the fusing community. I have the sense that trying to make things that please people isn't enough. That melting some glass, just for the fun of it, isn't enough.

I happen to enjoy the pursuit of learning and technical excellence in what I do but I can appreciate that there may be many others that would like to make a bowl for grandma, a vase for aunt Lucy, etc without learning how glass behaves in the kiln. They might welcome a kiln with a "pet friendly" controller so they could do what they want without having to learn a new skill. Is there something wrong with them?

Jim, Jim, Jim! Chill out - you're agitating my cat. And now that he's figured out Quote Boxes (purrrrrrr!!) he needs a level head before he attacks Push Button Drop Outs!

[Tony Smith]

Jim,

I've changed my response to your post six times already... I'll probably change it another six times after I post it...

My aspiration is to be really good at fusing. I'm not a very talented artist, so I know my fused glass will never be remarkable. I do expect that I will be able to produce consistent, well-made, fused pieces. This takes practice. It also takes a fundamental understanding of the way glass behaves. I try, I experiment and I learn.

I happen to enjoy the pursuit of learning and technical excellence in what I do but I can appreciate that there may be many others that would like to make a bowl for grandma, a vase for aunt Lucy, etc without learning how glass behaves in the kiln. They might welcome a kiln with a "pet friendly" controller so they could do what they want without having to learn a new skill. Is there something wrong with them?

I agree that we should be satisfied with making stuff for our family and friends if that's what we want... we don't need to be making gallery pieces if all we want is to be melting glass. But you and I both know that there's no easy way to get there. It takes knowledge of some fundamentals, and it takes understanding the equipment.


You may be right, that in the long run and in the grand scheme of things, many of the things you mention don't really matter. A few days ago, someone posted a question about her new kiln... She asked "why won't my glass slump?" She pressed "slump" (or whatever the command was) and the glass didn't slump. She bought this kiln for more than $500 plus shipping and followed the directions and her glass wouldn't slump. Now what? Use the kiln as a paperweight? Did it really matter? To her it did.

When someone takes a class from a lousy teacher, it doesn't matter unless you're the student that just shelled out $250 for a class that turned out to be worthless.

The fact that pieces are poorly annealed doesn't really matter until someone purchases a piece that explodes when they bring it into the house from the cold car...

You can say it doesn't matter, but it does matter to someone, and in many of the cases you mentioned, it leaves a bad experience with fused glass that might not be overcome. One goal for all of us should be to do something to advance the artform... and that doesn't mean that you have to be redecorating the Chihuly museum... it means that you are doing something that you like, and that you are doing it well. That's all. Any more than that is a bonus.

Tony