WORKING WITH LIQUID ENAMELS OR GLASS PAINTS

[Havi]

Hello everybody.
I must be very stupid, or I do not know what.
I AM A PRINTMAKER, I know how to print I have a lot of experience from my past studies. Even my graduate exhibition at the university [ages ago.... ] was prints.
I also work with glass, especially with powders / wafers, now. Those were my 2 areas of study for my graduate degree. Printmaking and Glass Design.

I am very happy that I can combine these 2 abilities of mine, and make things that I love.... the way I love...

What I lack, is experience with liquid enamels, and knowledge how to use them.

I bought a lot of colorline paints, I print them on my piece, and the results are not satisfying.....
1. the color changes after firing....[was told to ventilate the kiln - it helps a little]
2. when I fire a piece more than once - the paint kind of breaks - i.e. there become holes in the paint [or pigment, whatever you may call it]. Sometimes it is more interesting like this - sometimes not. However, it is not ME who controls it.
Can this be avoided?

I would like to ask if anyone else has experience like this [if is willing to admit failure...]

Is this typical of ALL the liquid paints / enamels, or special to colorline [please do not ask me to talk to the manufacturer - I have done it, ]

Are other enamels / paints which I can use for printing on glass , where I could work also including using wafers, powders etc. Without any undesired reaction with the glass or powder?
Can the alternative enamels be fired more than one and keep the original color / shape???

Yes, Brad I have Jody's book and I am going to read it after posting this. However, I would like to hear others' experience too.

I'd be so very grateful for anything that will enable me proceed with this exciting process.

Many thanks,
Havi

[Brad Walker]

We use the Sunshine Enamels and have very good experience with them. Jody's book "Printmaking Techniques on Glass" covers how to use them in a myriad of different ways.

Jody tests lots of different enamels (including the Colorline Paints) and concluded that Sunshine Enamels work best, at least in the ways we use them (covered in the book). They're not perfect, but they give fewer problems than other enamels we've tried.

Link to book: http://www.warmglass.org/books

Link to enamels: http://www.warmglass.org/enamels

[Kevin Midgley]

After checking the MSDS safety information available for enamels, you may decide you don't want them in your studio.
google the colour etc. and MSDS to come up with your safe handling information.

[Havi]

Thanks, kevin
What do I not want -
ALL liquid enamels? or what.

Thanks in advance,

Havi

[Brad Walker]

Some enamels have lead. Some enamels have cadmium or other elements, used to create the color, just as do pastels and oil paints.

The Sunshine line is lead-based and the colors do have cadmium, etc. Other enamel lines may nor may not have lead, cadmium, etc. The advice to read the MSDS makes sense. All enamels need to be handled carefully.

Also, be aware that enamels made for enameling are different than enamels made for painting or printing on glass.

[Havi]

Some enamels have lead. Some enamels have cadmium or other elements, used to create the color, just as do pastels and oil paints.

The Sunshine line is lead-based and the colors do have cadmium, etc. Other enamel lines may nor may not have lead, cadmium, etc. The advice to read the MSDS makes sense. All enamels need to be handled carefully.

Also, be aware that enamels made for enameling are different than enamels made for painting or printing on glass.

So what should I order for printing???


Thanks,
Havi

[Brad Walker]

So what shout I order for printing???

We use and sell Sunshine enamels for printing on glass. That's what Jody's book covers and what we use successfully for many different printmaking applications on glass.

Enamels made for enameling won't necessarily work.

[Don Burt]

I don't know anything about Colorline enamels. But If you eventually use Brad's sunshine enamels and have problems please describe:

1. Which medium was used. e.g. Pine oil, Water miscible medium, Klyrfyre etc
2. Application method. I assume you are screen printing. Or are you rubber stamping? What is your screen size?
3. Which enamel color is most problematic?
4. Which glass are you using?
5. What is the glass substrate shape? e.g. a bowl in a mold? A flat slab on a kiln shelf?
5. What is the firing history. e.g. multiple times to 1450F?

A picture of the results would be helpful too.

[Havi]

I don't know anything about Colorline enamels. But If you eventually use Brad's sunshine enamels and have problems please describe:

1. Which medium was used. e.g. Pine oil, Water miscible medium, Klyrfyre etc I do not know, I got the enamels in liquid shape
2. Application method. I assume you are screen printing. Or are you rubber stamping? What is your screen size? I had an image made from a screen, don't know its size
3. Which enamel color is most problematic? I only used colorline paints / silk screen inks
4. Which glass are you using? Bullseye 6 millimeters
5. What is the glass substrate shape? e.g. a bowl in a mold? A flat slab on a kiln shelf? flat surface, is supposed to be 'a painting'
5. What is the firing history. e.g. multiple times to 1450F? Sometime it was lower than this, only to 730C

A picture of the results would be helpful too.

Thanks, and I shall post a photo soon

Havi

[Havi]

DSC00909 - עותק.JPG (50.25 KiB) Viewed 37691 times

DSC00913 - עותק.JPG (52.51 KiB) Viewed 37691 times

[Don Burt]

If the Colorline people can't help you with your problem after seeing those excellent photographs, then its time to move to a different paint. I'll repeat a detail of my suggestion to provide all of that information AFTER you obtain and experiment with some of Brad's Sunshine colors. There are a lot of people on the board who use Ferro Sunshine series porcelain overglaze colors. They can better help you diagnose your issues, if indeed those issues still occur with Sunshine paints.

Even so, the way that red paint is 'crawling' is interesting. it's like the pigment in it is gathering with surface tension more so than the nearly clear edges that are underneath. Is it two layers of paint that you've screened in a single application? or simply a single layer of red paint that is separating into two layers, clear edges and red hills? Both layers are crawling. But it's complicated processes at work there. I don't understand what's happening.

http://www.lakesidepottery.com/HTML%20T ... awling.htm

[Havi]

Thanks, Don
for your response, and analysis of the situation.
I wrote to the manufacturers of Colorline paints, sent them photos, and I am expecting their response.
I think that perhaps it is time to look for alternative enamels.

I want to combine in my work wafers AND prints, 'play' with them and between them. So, for the time being I will not go into a deep research about the various different kinds of enamels. I want to keep it simple, and easy to work with. Also not to spend too much money - where I am not sure it is necessary. Yet it is good to know of other options.

However, the disaster with the fading away of the print - depressed me so much, that I simply can not work at all....

Hopefully it will be over soon,
and thanks again, I appreciate what you wrote to me

Havi

[Bert Weiss]

Havi, you are applying too thick a coating. This causes the orange peel effect or cracking and volcano effect. (thinking about it I think orange peel is caused by under firing) These colors are really strong.

Color line are really Ferro Samba series. These are similar to the Ferro Sunshine series but require a bit higher temperature to mature and are lead free. I have limited experience with Samba series, but that is because I prefer Sunshine. Application should be identical with both, firing simply higher for the Colorline (Samba).

As anybody reading this board knows, I have been advocating the use of this style of colors with fusing glasses for decades. Bullseye finally picked up the ball and is running with it.

Havi, stick with it. These colors can be used with many print making techniques. Think thin.

[Havi]

Bert,

Thanks for your response.
However, I can not understand how do know that I am applying a too thick layer of ink????????????????? I wonder. On the contrary, being a printmaker, and my experience as such - I have the feel of how much ink should be applied.
I do not know anything about Ferro colors, Samba or Sunshine or any other .
However, one of my first conclusions was that I should apply very thin layer of ink . I even wrote in in my notebook where I keep track of my firings. To memorize it, It's in Hebrew, otherwise I would have copied it for you, and the date is probably also there, as I date my firings.
I have invested a lot of money in colorline inks, and I shall not throw it away just like this.
I bought the Sunshine colors, and I shall experiment with them, hopefully this very weekend.
Even more I have an experimental piece of glass with orange colorline, I shall add on it sunshine - and will start an experiment with both. We'll see what happens.
Meanwhile, if I HAVE to use colorline - I shall leave it to the last firing - so that it will not fade away. Actually there is another piece which was fired only once, and the color also faded...
So we say in Hebrew 'He who was burnt with tepid water, should be careful with cold water' I'd better follow it, before I ruin few more pieces.

Thanks again,
Havi

[Bert Weiss]

Bert,

Thanks for your response.
However, I can not understand how do know that I am applying a too thick layer of ink????????????????? I wonder. On the contrary, being a printmaker, and my experience as such - I have the feel of how much ink should be applied.
I do not know anything about Ferro colors, Samba or Sunshine or any other .
However, one of my first conclusions was that I should apply very thin layer of ink . I even wrote in in my notebook where I keep track of my firings. To memorize it, It's in Hebrew, otherwise I would have copied it for you, and the date is probably also there, as I date my firings.
I have invested a lot of money in colorline inks, and I shall not throw it away just like this.
I bought the Sunshine colors, and I shall experiment with them, hopefully this very weekend.
Even more I have an experimental piece of glass with orange colorline, I shall add on it sunshine - and will start an experiment with both. We'll see what happens.
Meanwhile, if I HAVE to use colorline - I shall leave it to the last firing - so that it will not fade away. Actually there is another piece which was fired only once, and the color also faded...
So we say in Hebrew 'He who was burnt with tepid water, should be careful with cold water' I'd better follow it, before I ruin few more pieces.

Thanks again,
Havi

I've been working with this style of colors for 35 years, so I know what happens if you apply them to thickly. I work closely with the manufacturer of these colors, which is how I learned that Bullseye is using Samba and repackaging it as Colorline. Don't give up. You will figure this out. Take some scrap glass or float glass, and do some experimenting. Apply the colors from thin to thick and fire them as recommended. You should see the differences. Some reds require oxygen to turn red. They will go black if oxygen starved. You will find that white is the most opaque color and blue is the most transparent. The others are somewhere in between. Chances are you will be going for a translucent look.

Sunshine colors mature at a lower temperature. The warmer colors will probably start to fade if over fired, before the cooler colors. Samba colors are designed for 1500ºF - 1650–F (820ºC - 900ºC) Sunshine colors are for 1380ºF - 1560ºF (750ºC - 850ºC) Some colors will react with the tin side of float glass, others will not.

[Havi]

Thank you Bert,
I bought Colorline paints from their manufacturer, who is CREATIVE GLASS in Volketswil Switzerland, near Zurich. Perhaps they have some agreement with BE -behind the curtains.
I bought the paints directly form them, as I took several classes there. I know them, and they know me, they never mentioned anything about Ferro or Samba, but I might ask them. The product appears as their own. To me, the ignorant it sounds as is BE is selling the Swiss product. period.

However, the question is the quality of the paints / enamels. There were some experiments where it worked, yet there are more pieces that it did not work. But this is not what I was told by the manufacturers!!!
The manufacturer told me that the paints need to be ventilated up to 650C degrees [!] [1202F] especially the reds, and that the temperature should be up to[ 730 - 1346F] - 745 C [1373 f] even though it can be fired higher. Its true that if they are not ventilated they look like black , very VERY dark red.
And most important according to them - the paint surviveS MULTIPLE FIRINGS - this is not proven in realty, in reality each firing 'burns' more of the original paint, It happened to me more than once, in more than one piece. with more than one color.
I had also trouble using violet color - which became white after firing - and I have photos to show this.
Luckily , I am used to photograph everything I put in the kiln before and after - for this very reason, also in order to track successes , and be able to repeat them. So I have everything documented, including the specific schedule of each firing.

I wonder what response shall I get if I put this on BE bulletin board.

From what you say I understand that I should try learn more about the Ferro Samba series. I'll check it more carefully.

In any case those who sell Colorline should experiment more - and have exact specifications that represent the real product , its abilities and disabilities. I know now, that there are others who had the same experience as me, and probably more who would not admit a failure....but know I am right.

many thanks,
Havi

[Bert Weiss]

Thank you Bert,
I bought Colorline paints from their manufacturer, who is CREATIVE GLASS in Volketswil Switzerland, near Zurich. Perhaps they have some agreement with BE -behind the curtains.
I bought the paints directly form them, as I took several classes there. I know them, and they know me, they never mentioned anything about Ferro or Samba, but I might ask them. The product appears as their own. To me, the ignorant it sounds as is BE is selling the Swiss product. period.

However, the question is the quality of the paints / enamels. There were some experiments where it worked, yet there are more pieces that it did not work. But this is not what I was told by the manufacturers!!!
The manufacturer told me that the paints need to be ventilated up to 650C degrees [!] [1202F] especially the reds, and that the temperature should be up to[ 730 - 1346F] - 745 C [1373 f] even though it can be fired higher. Its true that if they are not ventilated they look like black , very VERY dark red.
And most important according to them - the paint surviveS MULTIPLE FIRINGS - this is not proven in realty, in reality each firing 'burns' more of the original paint, It happened to me more than once, in more than one piece. with more than one color.
I had also trouble using violet color - which became white after firing - and I have photos to show this.
Luckily , I am used to photograph everything I put in the kiln before and after - for this very reason, also in order to track successes , and be able to repeat them. So I have everything documented, including the specific schedule of each firing.

I wonder what response shall I get if I put this on BE bulletin board.

From what you say I understand that I should try learn more about the Ferro Samba series. I'll check it more carefully.

In any case those who sell Colorline should experiment more - and have exact specifications that represent the real product , its abilities and disabilities. I know now, that there are others who had the same experience as me, and probably more who would not admit a failure....but know I am right.

many thanks,
Havi

Havi, Bullseye calls their offering Color Line. I had no idea there was another company using the same name.

In my experience, the key is following manufacturers directions relative to temperature. Over firing can make colors disappear. Reds definitely need oxygen. Violets are made with gold, and over firing can make it disappear. Working with Sunshine series, I don't get a lot of surprises, once I learned not to fire reds encased between glass layers.

[Bert Weiss]

Thank you Bert,
I bought Colorline paints from their manufacturer, who is CREATIVE GLASS in Volketswil Switzerland, near Zurich. Perhaps they have some agreement with BE -behind the curtains.
I bought the paints directly form them, as I took several classes there. I know them, and they know me, they never mentioned anything about Ferro or Samba, but I might ask them. The product appears as their own. To me, the ignorant it sounds as is BE is selling the Swiss product. period.

However, the question is the quality of the paints / enamels. There were some experiments where it worked, yet there are more pieces that it did not work. But this is not what I was told by the manufacturers!!!
The manufacturer told me that the paints need to be ventilated up to 650C degrees [!] [1202F] especially the reds, and that the temperature should be up to[ 730 - 1346F] - 745 C [1373 f] even though it can be fired higher. Its true that if they are not ventilated they look like black , very VERY dark red.
And most important according to them - the paint surviveS MULTIPLE FIRINGS - this is not proven in realty, in reality each firing 'burns' more of the original paint, It happened to me more than once, in more than one piece. with more than one color.
I had also trouble using violet color - which became white after firing - and I have photos to show this.
Luckily , I am used to photograph everything I put in the kiln before and after - for this very reason, also in order to track successes , and be able to repeat them. So I have everything documented, including the specific schedule of each firing.

I wonder what response shall I get if I put this on BE bulletin board.

From what you say I understand that I should try learn more about the Ferro Samba series. I'll check it more carefully.

In any case those who sell Colorline should experiment more - and have exact specifications that represent the real product , its abilities and disabilities. I know now, that there are others who had the same experience as me, and probably more who would not admit a failure....but know I am right.

many thanks,
Havi

Havi, Bullseye calls their offering Color Line. I had no idea there was another company using the same name.

In my experience, the key is following manufacturers directions relative to temperature. Over firing can make colors disappear. Reds definitely need oxygen. Violets are made with gold, and over firing can make it disappear. Working with Sunshine series, I don't get a lot of surprises, once I learned not to fire reds encased between glass layers.

[Havi]

Bert,
Bullseye is selling the colorline I mentioned.
Just look at the bottles, you will that it is the same.

BULLSEYE
https://www.bullseyeglass.com/methods-i ... icleid=752

CREATIVE GLASS / SWITZERLAND
http://colorlinepaints.com/products/

At the bottom of this page it says 'made in Switzerland.'
........... and you can browse a little more to realize that this is the same product.

The only thing I do not know yet, is, if this is really Ferro Samba, and the practical applications of being a Ferro Samba, what does it mean, what are the consequences? should I or should I not use it? What is the difference between Ferro Sunshine and Ferro Samba.
I found out that they carry Ferro also in Israel, but they could not tell me on the phone what powders they were. The store is located in a place where I can not really go to [traffic fears] so I will have to find out eventually. - - -

Havi

[Havi]

Bert,
I think I have some Samba powders, which I also bought there.
I was told that I could mix it with BE powders, in order to enhance the BE colors, Do you know anything about it???


Thanks
Havi